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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2006 9:05pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "So people are getting legal documents without actually fully understanding what they are or how they work? Doesn't sound very smart to me."

    Yes, I used to see it all the time.

    "So could we say that people are being filled with false confidence because of their stupidity and inability to think things through? Wouldn't this make people's ignorance, among other things, to blame for their false confidence rather than restraining orders? "

    Not stupidity, just lack of context. If they've never applied for one before they don't know how the system works. And I will say this, we at the clerk's office processed the orders without taking people aside and giving them our opinion on this process. We were afraid that we would be accused of giving legal advice or blamed if someone later said we tried to talk someone out of getting an order and they got hurt. So if the police tell you to get an order, and the clerk's office just processes the thing, who is to tell you about their track record? Ideally the victim's advocate but she wasn't based out of our office and she was up in family relationships three floors above us.
  2. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2006 9:23pm


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not stupidity, just lack of context. If they've never applied for one before they don't know how the system works. And I will say this, we at the clerk's office processed the orders without taking people aside and giving them our opinion on this process. We were afraid that we would be accused of giving legal advice or blamed if someone later said we tried to talk someone out of getting an order and they got hurt. So if the police tell you to get an order, and the clerk's office just processes the thing, who is to tell you about their track record? Ideally the victim's advocate but she wasn't based out of our office and she was up in family relationships three floors above us.
    I understand what you are saying, but I fail to understand how restraining orders, the courts, society, or the police are to blame or are instilling false confidence.
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2006 9:34pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will type some of Gavin De-Beckers quotes into the computer tomarrow. For anyone else who has his book I'm looking at pages 184-190.
  4. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2006 9:41pm


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Much appreciated. Thank you.
  5. Fnord325 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2006 11:44pm


     Style: Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Social Process

    I understand what you are saying, but I fail to understand how restraining orders, the courts, society, or the police are to blame or are instilling false confidence.
    People are only as good as the information they have, most people, "the average person" has very poor information. The police do not tell them much, usually a restraining order is the best solution for THE POLICE not the victim of a crime.

    Thus, an authority figure, THE POLICE, are telling a victim to get a restraining order. In the movie of the week, the rape victim is protected by a restraining order, and when she takes the unscrupulous cad to court, he is prosecuted and happiness is had by all (plays out on lifetime all the time, that girl who was the oldest sister on Full House was in a movie just like that).

    There are still a significant amount of people who believe that Iraq was directly connected to 9/11. There are people who believe that the Virgin Mary appears on the side of buildings in pollution scunge (or Jesus on toast). This stuff does not happen in a vacuum. Nobody is 100% formed by sheer self-determination and internal knowledge.

    Police are sometimes lazy, court officials are sometimes lazy, media is very lazy most of the time, and people are mostly lazy concerning the information they pay attention to (easiest access=best quality information).

    Our whole society is premissed on hierarchical structures that are present, supposedly, to help us. We are taught this since birth. Some people do develop the ability to look past this, but even that is not spontaneous. It comes from some other social exposure.
  6. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 12:51am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, but believing that a restraining order will protect you from violence is that person's fault and no one else's. I personally can't blame another person for my inability to critically examine something.

    I consider myself an "average person" with poor information. But what I do know is......

    -I have been bullied in school and have siblings. Growing up we would be told to play nice and stay away from each other if we can't get along. Bullies and siblings don't listen to authority even though they will get in trobule and I can only "tattle-tale" after I got bullied/hurt. This should provide some context for the restraining order. Some people don't listen to authority.

    -People break laws every day when authority figures are not around. Speeding, littering, etc. Why wouldn't some one break a restaining order if they wanted to and an authority figure isn't around?

    -The police are a reactionary force. They don't come unless something bad could happen, is happening, or has already happened. This would include after someone violated their restraining order.

    There are other examples, but I'll stick with that. Regardless of how much a person knows about a restraining order, anyone with a brain should ask themselves, "How will this piece of paper stop that person from hurting me if he trys to again?"

    I agree that noone is 100% by sheer self-determination and internal knowledge and that..

    Our whole society is premissed on hierarchical structures that are present, supposedly, to help us. We are taught this since birth. Some people do develop the ability to look past this, but even that is not spontaneous. It comes from some other social exposure..
    But someone's inability to do something, and thus gain false confidence from thinking they understand how something will work, is not society's fault.
  7. Fnord325 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 10:32am


     Style: Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First, I never said it was society's fault, and neither did the author. So, you are engaging in a slippery slope argument. What I did say is that there is a societal process that does lead to this outcome. It happens, I have seen it many, many times, over and over.

    Why do I feel like I am back teaching Social Psychology 101?

    If this wasn't the case, then I would not have met the literally hundreds of people who wake up from the stupor. Your belief in this process or acceptance of it is really irrelevant and reflects your own internal biases.

    -People break laws every day when authority figures are not around. Speeding, littering, etc. Why wouldn't some one break a restaining order if they wanted to and an authority figure isn't around?
    Because those are perceived as victimless crimes and a restraining order is about that person in specific, we have a self-serving bias. Because everyone speeds and litters (lots of people at least) it is not typically viewed as serious. Violence is serious, and because the victim would probably comply with the restraining order, they assume most other people would. Yes, it is a stupid assumption, but it is a very common one fostered by many institutions, including the police, who are supposedly experts on this. Mr. Browning is right, people very rarely tell a person seeking a RO that the crazy person they are afraid of is probably working in a different perception of reality than they are.

    [quote]-The police are a reactionary force. They don't come unless something bad could happen, is happening, or has already happened. This would include after someone violated their restraining order.[quote]

    Not to hear police organizations tell it, until it is all they are left with. That is why they will try to keep you on the phone on a 911 call during a break-in rather than have you flee or try to defend yourself. That is why police will advise against you stopping someone from killing another person if you have the opportunity to do so. It makes things messy for them. Very little the police tells you is beyond a calculated policy leaning towards their institutional convenience. This is why most cops I have talked to over the years premise things with, "this isn't what I would normally say..."

    But someone's inability to do something, and thus gain false confidence from thinking they understand how something will work, is not society's fault.
    Yes, everyone should be smarter. American society thrives on denial of reality and acceptance of myth. Our entire marketing system is designed this way. Almost all of our local, state, and national institutions, comprised of people, reflect this. There is a process that goes on. If you are capable of seeing through this, then you are not "average" as you stated.

    That is, incidentally, another psychological bias, the assumption that everyone is like us or that we are not that different from others.

    If you want to blame the individual for the outcome, that is fine, and perhaps they should shoulder some of the blame. However, they got there with help. That is what I am saying, and that help is persistent and actively cultivates this type of stupor. You WILL NOT see it end until institutions are made more accountable to the citizenry, because the citizenry don't want to put forth the effort to change you will not see it change from either direction in any meaningful way. It is a self-sustaining system.

    I will sum it up one last time. From your original question:


    I understand what you are saying, but I fail to understand how restraining orders, the courts, society, or the police are to blame or are instilling false confidence.
    When the average person in trouble goes to the "authorities" who are tax supported and asks for help, they are told "get a restraining order." Unlike you or me, the vast majority of people will take this as gospel. Partially out of trust in the institution and authority in general, partially out of laziness (their fault, if you will), and partially because the institutions in question will insist to this person that this is the appropriate action in every instance. This last point is important because it is the ONLY response the institution has. That last point is in essence a fault of the institution.

    If you were given bad legal advice by your lawyer and you did not possess the wherewithal to know it, would the attorney in question be complicit in the outcome? The answer to that is an unequivocal, "yes."

    In the end, the final decisions are yours, but output is only as good as input. Lucky for you and me, our inputs include extra information. For many people, it just simply does not.

    Now, Mr. DeBecker would argue that everyone does, innately have the ability to see what you and I see about restraining orders and danger, but that they have built up a lot of denial for the sake of perceived ease and sanity. He also argues that these people have had a lot of "help" in coming to these flawed conclusions.
    Assigning blame in either direction, in the end, is useless. It is a process that is fact. By assigning blame, we ourselves come to a false settlement of the situation and assume that the event is over to our own satisfaction. By blaming somebody we can have a sense of closure and accomplishment internally. This is also a misperception, a bias, and a logical fallacy.

    In the end, it is nobody's fault, if the perpetrator didn't act, it wouldn't have happnened, if the victim had done X,Y, and Z differently it wouldn't have happened, if our institutions were actually designed to resolve situations and not just stave off inconvenience, it wouldn't have happened.....maybe. But these things do happen, and when we pick through it, we see a process, over and over and over.

    I understand what you are saying, but I would think most people would learn about this type of thing, on a smaller scale, at home.
    I do really, really, really wish this was true, but it is not. Clearly for you this was probably what was different. Certain events clued you into some very important realities. For me, it was watching others go through bad circumstances and I paid attention (vicarious learning).

    We cannot assume that others know these things. If you want to help people, be warned, many people do not want to be helped. They will actively resist the removal of the blinders, because it is their security blanket (literally). If you don't, then get used to ignoring the tendencies of greater society.
  8. Rhamma is offline

    Not over zealous, but just zealous enough. 病気の粗悪品

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 10:53am


     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ladies it's simple

    1. File a restraining order
    2. Get a gun (same day or before)
    3. wait
    4. if he doesn't show up invite him with no witnesses
    5. when he shows up SHOOT HIS ASSS!
    6. Restraining order is proof you were in fear for you life = get out of jail free

    :evil:
    People often tell me that I fail to see the gravity of the situation.
    I see the gravity, and I say...

    Step right up folks and watch me defy gravity!
  9. BoardHitBack is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 11:13am


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord325
    People are only as good as the information they have, most people, "the average person" has very poor information.

    Our whole society is premissed on hierarchical structures that are present, supposedly, to help us. We are taught this since birth. Some people do develop the ability to look past this, but even that is not spontaneous. It comes from some other social exposure.
    That first bit is pretty ridiculous. You can have the best or most information availible and not learn a damn thing, or simply ignore it. You can have very limited information and still apply it, and yourself to it, intelligently.

    Yadda, yadda althuser yadda ideological state apparatus yadda yadda structural marxism yawn. I agree. But the ability to look past these things is not dependent solely on other social exposure. It can come spontaneously in the instance of being failed by said systemic heirarchies, or simply occur thru being a sceptical, cynical and untrusting bastard in the first place.
  10. Rhamma is offline

    Not over zealous, but just zealous enough. 病気の粗悪品

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 11:18am


     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BoardHitBack
    That first bit is pretty ridiculous. You can have the best or most information availible and not learn a damn thing, or simply ignore it. You can have very limited information and still apply it, and yourself to it, intelligently.
    "Some people can read 'War and Peace' and come away thinking it was just an adventure story, others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the mysteries of the universe."

    ~Lex Luthur

    "What does chewing gum have to do with the mysteries of the universe?"

    ~Eve Teschmacher

    "My point exactly."

    ~Lex Luthur
    People often tell me that I fail to see the gravity of the situation.
    I see the gravity, and I say...

    Step right up folks and watch me defy gravity!
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