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  1. #21
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oddly enough the "traditionalists" had little problem mixing and matching. What I mean by that is if they wanted to grapple, they studied a grappling art. They did not pretend it was "part" of their striking art.

    Now we have "brand loyalty" born of movies--"Souther Shaolin defeat Ninja!"--but back in the day it was not unheard of to spend time in different styles. One guy in my style wanted Okinawan weapons to be part of it. It never was. The seniors told him to do what they do--go to a weapons teacher! A multi-champion kumite guy studied/s Judo which he "introduced" on an opponent who tried a take-down on him.

    There was less of this "ego" of "my style teaches everything." The "everything" that my Imperious Grand Poohbah preached was foundation in sound body mechanics and as a basis to explore. You want to do a "round-house kick?" Fine. Do one. We do not need a "kata" to practice a round-house kick.

    The "traditional-is-t3h-d34dly" comes from those who are looking for an excuse NOT to practice. There are always those who want to be "t3h d34dly" without ever facing an opponent. The traditionalists did not do that.

    As I blathered on another thread, innovation is a part of traditional training.

    --J.D.

  2. #22
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor X
    Oddly enough the "traditionalists" had little problem mixing and matching. What I mean by that is if they wanted to grapple, they studied a grappling art. They did not pretend it was "part" of their striking art.

    Now we have "brand loyalty" born of movies--"Souther Shaolin defeat Ninja!"--but back in the day it was not unheard of to spend time in different styles. One guy in my style wanted Okinawan weapons to be part of it. It never was. The seniors told him to do what they do--go to a weapons teacher! A multi-champion kumite guy studied/s Judo which he "introduced" on an opponent who tried a take-down on him.

    There was less of this "ego" of "my style teaches everything." The "everything" that my Imperious Grand Poohbah preached was foundation in sound body mechanics and as a basis to explore. You want to do a "round-house kick?" Fine. Do one. We do not need a "kata" to practice a round-house kick.

    The "traditional-is-t3h-d34dly" comes from those who are looking for an excuse NOT to practice. There are always those who want to be "t3h d34dly" without ever facing an opponent. The traditionalists did not do that.

    As I blathered on another thread, innovation is a part of traditional training.

    --J.D.
    Hear, hear. As I said earlier, a healthy tradition always contains innovation and often-productive conflict.
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  3. #23
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks!

    I did not want to re-blather what I pontificated on the other thread, but the Traditional dojos in Okinawa have weight-training equipment and the teachers study modern methods. Imperious Grand Poohbah worked with weighted jars because that is all they had--remember, water and gravity were not invented "back then!"

    My style has knees and elbows in its kata. Does that mean I practice Tai Kickboxing? Absolutely not! I can sit back and "see" Tai techniques but if I want to learn them, I have to concentrate on them and--Holy Inappropriate with an Underage Male, Batman!--I probably should work in an art that concentrates on them.

    There is also some simple grappling. So I know BJJ? Feh!

    That is the problem with the "worshippers" of "traditional;" they think because they can "find" a foreign element in their kata and/or practice they will magickly absorb the element effortlessly. I gave up on a board where people "pooh-poohed" point sparing. Fine. Probably a lot of people HERE would agree--EXCEPT their "pooh-poohing" was an excuse to NOT spar. You have heard it all--"not the r34l str33t," "traditional techniques t3h d34dly," blah . . . blah.

    At least with even point sparing you have an opponent you have to deal with.

    No, they feel that because they dance kata and do some simple "two-man" drills "t3h d34dly" will flow out of them when needed. Sure.

    Then you have the modern fools who "see" Dim Mak in every kata--yes . . . that will save you. I see I am ranting so I will stop. I will close that I re-visited an old board and saw a Wing Chung fan-boy trying to "out t3h d34dly" the traditionalists. For some reason I thought of this board.

    --J.D.

  4. #24
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor X
    Thanks!

    I did not want to re-blather what I pontificated on the other thread, but the Traditional dojos in Okinawa have weight-training equipment and the teachers study modern methods. Imperious Grand Poohbah worked with weighted jars because that is all they had--remember, water and gravity were not invented "back then!"

    My style has knees and elbows in its kata. Does that mean I practice Tai Kickboxing? Absolutely not! I can sit back and "see" Tai techniques but if I want to learn them, I have to concentrate on them and--Holy Inappropriate with an Underage Male, Batman!--I probably should work in an art that concentrates on them.

    There is also some simple grappling. So I know BJJ? Feh!

    That is the problem with the "worshippers" of "traditional;" they think because they can "find" a foreign element in their kata and/or practice they will magickly absorb the element effortlessly. I gave up on a board where people "pooh-poohed" point sparing. Fine. Probably a lot of people HERE would agree--EXCEPT their "pooh-poohing" was an excuse to NOT spar. You have heard it all--"not the r34l str33t," "traditional techniques t3h d34dly," blah . . . blah.

    At least with even point sparing you have an opponent you have to deal with.

    No, they feel that because they dance kata and do some simple "two-man" drills "t3h d34dly" will flow out of them when needed. Sure.

    Then you have the modern fools who "see" Dim Mak in every kata--yes . . . that will save you. I see I am ranting so I will stop. I will close that I re-visited an old board and saw a Wing Chung fan-boy trying to "out t3h d34dly" the traditionalists. For some reason I thought of this board.

    --J.D.
    Rant duly noted and greeted with affirmation.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  5. #25
    The gift that keeps on giving supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor X
    Oddly enough the "traditionalists" had little problem mixing and matching. What I mean by that is if they wanted to grapple, they studied a grappling art. They did not pretend it was "part" of their striking art.

    Now we have "brand loyalty" born of movies--"Souther Shaolin defeat Ninja!"--but back in the day it was not unheard of to spend time in different styles. One guy in my style wanted Okinawan weapons to be part of it. It never was. The seniors told him to do what they do--go to a weapons teacher! A multi-champion kumite guy studied/s Judo which he "introduced" on an opponent who tried a take-down on him.

    There was less of this "ego" of "my style teaches everything." The "everything" that my Imperious Grand Poohbah preached was foundation in sound body mechanics and as a basis to explore. You want to do a "round-house kick?" Fine. Do one. We do not need a "kata" to practice a round-house kick.

    The "traditional-is-t3h-d34dly" comes from those who are looking for an excuse NOT to practice. There are always those who want to be "t3h d34dly" without ever facing an opponent. The traditionalists did not do that.

    As I blathered on another thread, innovation is a part of traditional training.

    --J.D.

    Great post!

    That is exactly how I understand it as well. If you do a little research into the practices of past "masters" you'll see how they often sent their students to other "masters" simply because those guys were better at certain things than they were.

    I use quotes as I really dislike the term "master" in reference to MAs since we're always trying to get better at what ever we practice. Hence "mastery" is impossible (IMO).

  6. #26
    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM Bullshido Newbie
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks!

    One of my teachers has a friend who is an Isshin-Ryu dude. He has a picture of Shimabuku--his Imperious Grand PoohBah--and Uechi Kanei--my Glorious Grand PoohBah.

    Both are kind of leaning against one another looking a bit wasted.

    "Oh, they must have had hard training!" one of his student exclaimed.

    "No!" my teacher's friend responded, "they were drunk!"

    --J.D.

  7. #27

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Traditional Gung Fu is about the development of the fighter, not slavish adherance to a single art.

  8. #28
    The gift that keeps on giving supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor X
    Thanks!

    One of my teachers has a friend who is an Isshin-Ryu dude. He has a picture of Shimabuku--his Imperious Grand PoohBah--and Uechi Kanei--my Glorious Grand PoohBah.

    Both are kind of leaning against one another looking a bit wasted.

    "Oh, they must have had hard training!" one of his student exclaimed.

    "No!" my teacher's friend responded, "they were drunk!"

    --J.D.
    lol, that says it all. I'm sure your teacher's friend was right!

  9. #29
    The gift that keeps on giving supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Traditional Gung Fu is about the development of the fighter, not slavish adherance to a single art.
    Karate is about development of character, not slavish adherence to fighting.

    Bushi = gentleman warrior (I know that I am NOT a "bushi," but trying).

  10. #30
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sfe
    Karate is about development of character, not slavish adherence to fighting.

    Bushi = gentleman warrior (I know that I am NOT a "bushi," but trying).
    And then there's budo.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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