228180 Bullies, 4725 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 57
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
    TehDeadlyDimMak's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,199

    Posted On:
    4/23/2006 10:18pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's a block?
  2. Steve is offline
    Steve's Avatar

    The gift that keeps on giving

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    4,205

    Posted On:
    4/24/2006 12:29am

    supporting member
     Style: On hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TehDeadlyDimMak
    What's a block?
    I don't know. Something they used to make the pyramids?
  3. Doctor X is offline
    Doctor X's Avatar

    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,383

    Posted On:
    4/24/2006 5:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Argumenta ad Rem

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it depends on what one means by "traditional." Unfortunately in the land of "ancient" and "traditional" = "better"--like "ancient medicine!--this is seen as an apology for crap. Someone attaches "traditional" to a practice, and it magically becomes good.

    The problem is that "traditional" styles do not teach traditionally. I can only speak for what I know, but traditional Okinawan styles back in the day did primarily conditioning and kumite. Kata was a vehicle to explore techniques, but the bottom line was squaring off and seeing what works. All else was to prepare for that. I am sure some of the old guys look back with a bit of "idealism"--"we trained 47 hours a day, 100 degrees in the shade, water was not invented yet!"--but truth be written that was it. As one teacher puts it when describing what has happened to martial arts:

    As beginner it is 'kata-kata-kata-kumite." As you improve, it becomes more "kata-kata-kumite-kumite" until you concentrate on kumite. Too many forgot this and stay in "kata-kata-kata."
    Now add in popularity. Things get watered down. I mean no disrespect to Tai Chi practitioners--since one should not judge a style on bad examples--but I remember asking a teacher if he or his students sparred. You can guess the response I am sure: "too dangerous/unnecessary/blah . . . blah." So I asked the "Stupid Question"--how do you know it works if you do not test it? Same fatuous response. Actually one told me--I am not joking--"I bet you cannot tell which foot I am standing on" as a "d34dly str33t technique. I reminded him that an opponent who smashes his face in would not care which foot he stood on.

    If I knew about grappling then I would have told him the grappler will thank him later for "sekritly" standing on one foot!

    According to one Grandpoohbah describing an Imperious Grand Poohbah of his style, IGP basically worked on kumite with students. Now, students want to dance kata.

    Kata is easy. I am invincible in kata. That is not the point.

    Unfortunately, the appeal to the "Real Traditional Martial Art" is used as an excuse of McDojos and Bullshidoists--"we are teh R34l TMA!!" It reads like an apology: "You just not practicing it right! If you did, it would work." You will find the same apology used by psychics and faith healers the world over.

    --J.D.
  4. PirateJon is offline
    PirateJon's Avatar

    and good morning to you too

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    DC
    Posts
    3,240

    Posted On:
    4/24/2006 10:39am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boxing is pretty true to the Marquess of Queensberry rules from 1867. Where does that fall? Traditional? Authentic? AWESOME?
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  5. Doctor X is offline
    Doctor X's Avatar

    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,383

    Posted On:
    4/24/2006 4:23pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Argumenta ad Rem

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Indeed.

    Maybe if there are boxing groups that practice "no touch."

    Grappling arts could do this, but it is more difficult because by definition grappling two people. Though never underestimate the ability of man to pussify and fradulent. ["Fradulent" is not a verb.--Ed.]

    --J.D.
  6. porch is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    hfx ns ca na da
    Posts
    167

    Posted On:
    4/25/2006 5:24am


     Style: kb, tapping, jjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Complex games progress.

    If you took a chess player from 100 years ago and timewarped him to the present to take on someone equal to him in talent and dedication, he would lose. The contemporary player would have the luxury of taking loads of concepts for granted that Ye Olde player had never been exposed to before.

    No sane chess player would limit themselves to only studying matches older than 100 years. Why a martial artist would do the equivalent is beyond me.
  7. Steve is offline
    Steve's Avatar

    The gift that keeps on giving

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    4,205

    Posted On:
    4/25/2006 11:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: On hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by porch
    Complex games progress.

    If you took a chess player from 100 years ago and timewarped him to the present to take on someone equal to him in talent and dedication, he would lose. The contemporary player would have the luxury of taking loads of concepts for granted that Ye Olde player had never been exposed to before.

    No sane chess player would limit themselves to only studying matches older than 100 years. Why a martial artist would do the equivalent is beyond me.
    I really like the analogy but I don't thing that chess fits the bill to what we're talking about tho (IMHO).

    For instance, I couldn't decide that I could take a pawn and attack like a knight out of the blue. There are EXACT set rules for every single person who ever plays the game, or at least agreed rules that they share durning the game.

    Same thing could be said of a Traditionalist that doesn't incorperate ground work. He couldn't use a leg besides kicking (and triping, sweeping, blocking, etc). A triangle choke would be ruled out, for example.

    While those that would be considered authentic/modern would adopt, adapt or improve (if they could, lol) those techniques, IE break the "rules."
  8. porch is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    hfx ns ca na da
    Posts
    167

    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 2:31pm


     Style: kb, tapping, jjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sfe
    I really like the analogy but I don't thing that chess fits the bill to what we're talking about tho (IMHO).

    For instance, I couldn't decide that I could take a pawn and attack like a knight out of the blue. There are EXACT set rules for every single person who ever plays the game, or at least agreed rules that they share durning the game.

    Same thing could be said of a Traditionalist that doesn't incorperate ground work. He couldn't use a leg besides kicking (and triping, sweeping, blocking, etc). A triangle choke would be ruled out, for example.

    While those that would be considered authentic/modern would adopt, adapt or improve (if they could, lol) those techniques, IE break the "rules."
    Maybe chess wasn't the brightest example for me to use since I'm not that skilled at, or knowledgeable of, chess. That said, I'll try to clarify.

    While the rules of chess have been the same for some time, the base of knowledge has been constantly expanding. Let's call the contemporary player "A" and our time-travelling player from the past "B". A could use an opening that B has never seen before. B might look at this and think that A is crazy, or stupid, or maybe that A is "up to something" but he is not quite sure what. To any other contemporary player, who has seen this opening and how it plays out over and over again, the implications are instantly clear and they can react accordingly. B is at a great disadvantage. Not only does B have to react, he has to figure out what he is reacting to. This is like someone trained only in a Traditional standup MA being confronted with a double leg takedown. As his opponent is coming in, he might be thinking "WTF is this guy doing? Is he serious?". Of course, he will find out what his opponent is doing by losing.

    We can also look at baseball. For a long time there was no rule saying that you couldn't use a relief pitcher, but noone did, just because it hadn't been considered. Once one team did, and the advantages became clear, it became standard practice. Once "everybody" is doing something, the entire game has been elevated a notch. To ignore that and just keep playing the old way, for whatever reason, is foolish.

    Anyhow, I'm just trying to come at it with a slightly different perspective and maybe establish something along the lines of a Universal Principle. I guess the "expanding base of knowledge" is the main point. This applies to noncompetitive endeavors, too: art, science, what have you. In any case, drawing upon the established base of knowledge doesn't require the practioner to be an innovator. Although being "up to speed" is, most times, a prerequisite for useful innovation.

    Well, I'm off to my doctor. I'm feeling a bit down, so I'm going to get some of my Black Bile drained off.
  9. Coyote is offline
    Coyote's Avatar

    Your RBSD Cannot Save You Now.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,190

    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 2:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spanish Rapier/Epee/Foil

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The term "authentic" seems slightly worrying to me.

    If it's not an "authentic" system, it implies that it's just crap someone made up.

    I'm looking too deeply at this while simultaneously missing the point, aren't I?
  10. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 6:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by porch
    We can also look at baseball. For a long time there was no rule saying that you couldn't use a relief pitcher, but noone did, just because it hadn't been considered. Once one team did, and the advantages became clear, it became standard practice. Once "everybody" is doing something, the entire game has been elevated a notch. To ignore that and just keep playing the old way, for whatever reason, is foolish.
    I understand your point of view, and according to the logic of efficiency, etc. you're absolutely right; it's crazy to ignore progress.

    On the other hand, there are folks who simply prefer baseball the way it used to be played - who actually reject efficiency in favor of nostalgia, respect for the past or historical interest, or just because they find it more fun to dress up like baseball players from the turn of the last century and play according to old-time rules. Likewise, some people prefer to play tennis and other sports as they were practiced hundreds of years ago.

    To me, that's a big part of the value of (some, not all) "traditional" martial arts styles as well. Classical kenjutsu, kyudo, etc. have basically no practical self defense value and slim chances of success in the octagon (though that might be educational). For all of that, they have a cultural and historical value that has nothing to do with the fact that they are out-moded as fighting styles.
    Last edited by DdlR; 4/27/2006 7:19pm at .
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.