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  1. herbm is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2012 5:28am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, no luck so far with "AMOK! folks" per se in Ottawa, but one of *my* AMOK! coaches is working Afghanistan with some Canadians (described below) who have been very interested in learning from him (my coach).

    So email me or something whatever info you want the folks to know about you (emails, phones etc) and I will pass it on to them.

    From a really good AMOK! trainer:
    The Canadian guys that I'm training with are really liking our material and training methodology, and have stated that they would love to start their own training group once they return home.

    While I cannot give details about them or what they do, these guys are the real deal and a group led by them will definitely create great fighters in all aspects of the word.

    ==================================

    Funny thing, I just stepped outside my building for a few moments, happened to run into one of them and mentioned this thread to him. His eyes lit up and he stated that it'd be great to have folks at home ready to train when they got back.

    Herb, see if you can get some contact information (email addresses) from those interested in Canada and I'll pass it along to the guys here.
    Or you (all) are welcome to visit the Forum/thread for yourself.....

    http://www.combativestraininggroup.c...hp?topic=645.0

    --
    HerbM
  2. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/20/2012 8:35am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by herbm View Post
    but one of *my* AMOK! coaches is working Afghanistan with some Canadians (described below) who have been very interested in learning from him (my coach).
    I might just have a friend of a friend (of a friend of a friend) in that group.

    So email me or something whatever info you want the folks to know about you (emails, phones etc) and I will pass it on to them.
    Looks like you can't receive private messages yet, so if you wouldn't mind shooting an email to guro[AT]youngforest.ca, I'd appreciate it.

    Or you (all) are welcome to visit the Forum/thread for yourself.....
    I've registered with the forum, and I'm just awaiting moderator approval.
    Last edited by Chili Pepper; 3/20/2012 8:39am at .
  3. herbm is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2012 9:01am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Message (email) sent directly to you.

    Hope it helps you....
  4. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2012 2:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't get it...when I go to the forum through the link, there is a picture of a guy with a gun running away from another guy with a weapon in his hands (I assume it is a knife or something).

    1. Why is the guy with the gun running, thus shooting like he is auditioning for "Boy'z In The Hood";

    2. Why is the guy with the knife chasing him when he knows the other guy has a gun and is too far away to do anything with the knife...other than get shot.

    This is not a troll...I just don't uinderstand what you are learning and what the point of the picture is.
  5. herbm is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 3:55am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    > I've registered with the forum, and I'm just awaiting moderator approval.

    Great to have you join us.

    I think the single most important thing that will convince people from the "Bullshido Mindset" is that AMOK! gives pressure testing a position of prime importance.

    Along with this is that "If your stuff works better, then AMOK! folks want to see and learn it."

    --
    HerbM
  6. herbm is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 4:25am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Perfectly legimate question

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas View Post
    I don't get it...when I go to the forum through the link, there is a picture of a guy with a gun running away from another guy with a weapon in his hands (I assume it is a knife or something).

    1. Why is the guy with the gun running, thus shooting like he is auditioning for "Boy'z In The Hood";

    2. Why is the guy with the knife chasing him when he knows the other guy has a gun and is too far away to do anything with the knife...other than get shot.

    This is not a troll...I just don't uinderstand what you are learning and what the point of the picture is.
    Doesn't sound like a troll to me and I am going to treat this as the Perfectly legitimate question that it is.

    The types of responses were developed during "Force-On-Force" exercises using Airsoft and NOK knives against FULLY RESISTING OPPONENTS.

    So let's discuss the reasons:

    It's easiest by explaining #2 first:

    #2 The guy with the knife chasing the guy with the gun AS PART OF AN EXERCISE

    Knife guy is playing a role -- a committed attacker with a knife.

    After that he is demonstrating how deadly it would be to think oneself safe merely because you "have a gun".

    In real life, the guy with the knife may be desperate, crazy, drugged up, evil or just no see the gun being draw (especially if it is dark or something else interferes.)

    Also note, that if the guy with the gun falters or isn't very good at this, a trained (or even just enthusiastic & aggressive) attack with a knife can still be deadly OR EVEN PREVAIL over a gun.

    Also most people shot with hand guns do NOT die. Well over half of those who reach the hospital live and many others go unreported.

    Even a man shot through the heart (e.g., drugged up or refusing to quit) MAY have 10 seconds of brain oxygen left in which to kill you with the knife.

    The drill is being done MOSTLY for the benefit of the man armed with the firearm. The guy with the knife is NOT presumed to be do anything intelligent nor necessarily tactically "correct".


    #1 Why is the guy with the gun running?

    The Tueller Drill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill is a well known and documented exercise that shows the fallacy of attempting to outdraw (with firearm) an attack by a knife (or perhaps other weapons) from even 20 or more feet away.

    Stand on the spot (referred to in shooting circles "on the X") and you WILL GET CUT OR KILLED a large percentage of the time even if you also kill or wound he attacker.

    Don't believe it? Get an Airsoft, some eye protection, some friends, and try it. (Again USE EYE PROTECTION.)

    Major goal: Get OFF THE X!!!!

    Similarly, if you try to outdraw a man armed with a gun, even if you "win" you will likely get shot as he dies.

    Worse, trying to draw when someone is holding a gun on you.

    Please note that in most cases the guy with the gun is NOT "running away" but is frequently running towards the attack but at an angle to GET OFF THE LINE OF ATTACK.

    In fact, the admonition "Get off the X" becomes

    Major goal: Get OFF THE X! and OFF THE LINE OF ATTACK!

    Even if he were running "away" it would (almost always) be at an angle, to get off line.

    The discussion of why a particular angle (or direction) is better or best is more involved and perhaps best left to the training area where the differences can be demonstrated.

    Also note, the initial distance and especially the availability of cover (hard protection) and concealment (hiding) changes the considerations.

    So he is:

    • Running to avoid getting killed.
    • Running at an angle to GET OFF THE LINE
    • He is drawing his weapon WHILE RUNNING to stop the threat

    Doing that last, drawing while running at an angle doesn't allow for "proper two hand isosceles" or "weaver stances" in most cases so he is shooting across his body or even behind his own shoulder AS HE RUNS.

    Shooting across your body while running is difficult to do with "Modern (Range) Technique" -- the angles are just wrong.

    Most "shooting only" (live fire) training never allows for such training situations due to safety concerns (e.g., all weapons downrange all the time etc.)

    As to the "boyz in the hood" aspect -- we jokingly sometimes call this hand position "Half Homey" because it IS REMINISCENT of posed styling you see in gangsta or hip hop videos.

    Let me assure you it is NOT for that purpose: generally if you relax your arm while running like this you will find that the gun takes various angles and a common one is to be HALF TILTED.

    This really isn't the same as the "Boyz n d Hood" horizontal (styling) hold but that misses the point:

    He's holding it that way because under those conditions experience in force on force exercises has convinced him it WORKS BETTER.

    We are exactly the opposite of the "styling" -- we don't give a WHIT "How We Look" -- even if someone naively thinks it looks stupid or uncool.

    We only want to know if it works, or not, or even if it "works more often" since nothing is ever perfect in combat.

    Does this help?

    Does it leave unsatified or with additional questions?

    --
    HerbM
    Last edited by herbm; 3/21/2012 4:57am at . Reason: spelling typos
  7. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 6:31am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I actually started a thread on this exact topic a few months ago. It was about how in law enforcement, 25 feet is the appropriate reactionary gap if you can't see the hands. However, even with that gap, there are a bunch of videos showing officers getting stabbed before they could get their gun out and fire!

    So you should step and move first and try to create space while pulling your gun. Standing and pulling your gun while not moving will get you killed!!

    And the best way to train this is by doing exactly what that picture shows, active live training!

    By the way, I like the forum you have over there!
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  8. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 10:27am


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by herbm View Post
    Doing that last, drawing while running at an angle doesn't allow for "proper two hand isosceles" or "weaver stances" in most cases so he is shooting across his body or even behind his own shoulder AS HE RUNS. [...] Generally if you relax your arm while running like this you will find that the gun takes various angles and a common one is to be HALF TILTED.

    This really isn't the same as the "Boyz n d Hood" horizontal (styling) hold but that misses the point:

    He's holding it that way because under those conditions experience in force on force exercises has convinced him it WORKS BETTER.
    Are you saying that this has been practiced with realistic recoil simulation? Has regaining some kind of two-handed grip been drilled? Apart from the muzzle movement induced by the combination of running and relaxed arms, I don't understand how follow-up shots could be remotely on target.
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 11:32am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by herbm View Post
    So he is:

    • Running to avoid getting killed.
    • Running at an angle to GET OFF THE LINE
    • He is drawing his weapon WHILE RUNNING to stop the threat

    Doing that last, drawing while running at an angle doesn't allow for "proper two hand isosceles" or "weaver stances" in most cases so he is shooting across his body or even behind his own shoulder AS HE RUNS.
    --
    HerbM
    Thanks. Good explaination for the "method behind the madness".

    I imagine the accuracy issue, pointed out by Robsta, simply comes down to 1) your life is in danger so deadly force is justified, 2) run away, and 3) spray and pray hoping you hold a double stacked clip and not a 1911.

    Although, regardless of whether or not deadly force is justified, the liability association with a "spray and pray" is life changingly high.
  10. herbm is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2012 12:14pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Are you saying that this has been practiced with realistic recoil simulation? Has regaining some kind of two-handed grip been drilled? Apart from the muzzle movement induced by the combination of running and relaxed arms, I don't understand how follow-up shots could be remotely on target.
    Good questions and the answers are:

    Realistic recoil? Yes, we have a local range that will let us practice moving live fire this way if we set it up carefully and safely (of course there is no attacker downrange). If you know ranges, such facilities are rare where it is both SAFE and ALLOWED.

    Muzzle movement/accuracy issues: First, move of these drills are in response to near or just out of contact ranges -- if you can take careful aimed fire from behind cover then do so.

    Yes, we practice transitions -- starting with one you didn't ask: (right hander running right) -- Out of the holster with right shooting cross body, moving to (brief) two handed shot(s) moving to left handed shots as you pass the attacker on your left side. Back to 'proper form' as you reach cover or gain enough distance.

    Aiming is NOT so important here -- basic rule for these distance is "Metal On Meat" put the front of the muzzle over center of mass. As you gain position, time, space, and/or cover you have the luxury of more careful aim.

    Airsoft gives you the technique practice against a fully resisting opponent -- life fire range practice gives you the chance for it to "go boom".

    I also may have mislead you when I mentioned "relaxed arms" -- by that I meant no unnecessary tension nor forcing the firearm into an unnatural position. Similar to relaxing the parts of your body that don't contribute to recoil control when using "modern technique" to shoot accurately at longer ranges.

    A large part of "good shooting" is using "just enough" pressure and only the "correct pressures and tensions" to do the job. Also as Brian Enos (a top competitive IPSC/USPSA shooter) says, "Seeing enough" -- nor more, no less to shoot as fast as possible while shooting accurately enough to get the task done.

    Let's pretend you aren't remotely on target (even after practicing): Which do you prefer?

    Accurately shooting a guy who is stabbing you with a knife

    Scaring the crap out of the guy by shooting all around him while getting away

    In practice, and with practice, you learn accuracy though. We see our Airsoft bounce off our partners and we can count the holes in the paper targets.

    BTW: Just as a (complete aside) -- I use far more of a 2-hand hold than most of my friends; that's just me and it might be better or worse but it seems to work for me, my prior training, my body etc. I still use 1-2-1 hand back to 2-hand when able, but I tend to get to 2-hands quicker and stay there more.

    Is it better? Fight it out and find out.
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