Thread: AMOK knife
4/20/2006 5:59pm, #11Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky
And to preempt any fucking douchebag who's gonna start to argue about what Pareto's Law specifically refers, let it go. This is The Armory, not Business 101.Kuha'o - Kela - Koa
3/13/2007 2:15am, #12
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
Sorry about not replying guys. I guess in Australia there is not a lot of knife stuff, and a lot out there is such BS. The Amok system seeems the best we've got so far. The rest are way too compliant and fanciful.
3/13/2007 8:05pm, #13
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
- Soviet State Of Kalifornia
DBMA rep down under to compliment your training:
Adelaide, South Austalia
Mob. 0418 845 334
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
3/13/2007 8:10pm, #14
Originally Posted by Ninjew
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
4/10/2007 6:50am, #15
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
I like what Bluto said about the 80% rule. It sounds about right., and Poidog's comment about absolute proficiency in the basics. I have found that focussing on the simple stuff reinforces basic knifing principles better. In my karate style we are beginning to see the similarities in mano e mano combat and how the unarmed principles corelate to armed principles - except for :qleft7::sign12:
I like the fact that there are no real ranks in Amok, and that you are as good as you are good. We are very fortunate to have it in our curriculum.
3/19/2012 6:47am, #16
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
My focus is almost exclusively Self-Defense Against Criminal Assault -- not competition, not conditioning, not MA.
I love all of those other things (never met a Martial Art I didn't like and at least get something from practicing) but they aren't my goal today, so if someone wants those then AMOK! won't suit or won't be complete enough by itself.
No ranks (Trainers are qualified to lead groups with some basic skills leading up to: Instructors are qualified to teach real seminars -- Instructors have real skills for sure.)
No bowing, uniforms or such -- we're not dissing others who do this, but we just don't spend any time on such.
AMOK! is not 'just FMA' although it has it's roots there and in other Indonesian, especially Thai, MA.
AMOK! is in surprising part a methodology of training as opposed to just a set of techniques -- there is a sincere, significant, and effective training methodology that is quite different from most other practice -- it is closest to what Scott Sonnon or BJJ does in practice, but obviously different from BJJ in lacking uniforms, ranks and competition (for some.)
IMO, the greatest SINGLE contribution BJJ added to modern Martial Training was the (everyday) FULL OPPOSITION WORK out.
AMOK! makes oppositional and working against a fully resisting partner/opponent a prime part of all training.
[Most new AMOK! students are asked to FIGHT before they are given any actual instruction beyond a quick safety briefing -- if not immediately, then it would be very unusual for a student to get through the first practice without some oppositional work]
Pressure testing is a prime reason for this oppositional work and Tom discards anything from AMOK! "curriculum" that doesn't meet this test, and the test of being TEACHABLE.
It's one thing for the grand pooh-bah of some MA school or lineage to be able to defeat all challenges, while quite a different thing for the newest student to be able to quickly learn a few things that make him or her immediately safer on the street.
By another token, if anyone can show that something is flawed or there is a better way AMOK! folks (and Tom especially) want to learn it.
AMOK! groups are however very friendly and very supported of anyone who wants to train, no matter ability level or martial skill -- we are trying to "beat our friends" but rather create problems for our that force our friends to learn skills that work against evil people -- while making sure OUR STUFF works against their best attempts to "win".
One thing surprising is that practically everyone "gets cut" (training knives) in our training -- instructors and trainers are NOT invulnerable, frequently not even to the newest students.
An enthusiastic, aggressive attack can sometimes defeat years of experience, especially if that experience has never had to work against a full force and full speed opponent trying to impose his will.
Another way of saying this: An aggressive 12 year old with
a 12" knife is immediately a 12th degree black belt.
AMOK! is organized around knives and many would say it is 'knife fighting' but it is really about using the knife to develop skills that translate effectively to empty hand, sticks, or any improvised tool at hand -- there is almost always some environmental substitute available to use in place of a knife and knives are overall probably the easiest defense tool to carry regularly.
We primarily use a special training knife, a "NOK Knife", which while not technically PART OF AMOK! is almost always present. (Real blades, aluminum trainers, soft trainers, etc can all be useful to us but NOKs are the best combination of REALISTIC/SAFE/AFFORDABLE that we have found.)
Nok trainers have a neoprene cover over a hard wood core.
The rubber cover makes a NOK knife almost safe at full speed (except eyes and direct to throat) so that fast opposition work doesn't need anyone to pull most strikes.
Safety glasses for eye protection is the only regular and required safety gear.
Some folks wear arm guards SOME of the time and anyone CAN wear any safety equipment they deem necessary but other than cups we seldom see this in normal practice.
Arm guards are worn by some because otherwise enthusiastic AMOK! practice is pretty much guaranteed to produce bruises for those who want to really work.
ALL TECHNIQUES ARE LEGAL. -- with a major caveat: You must send your training partners home safe, and you can't beat up on those without the skills to take falls or hard blows or deal with severe arm bars etc.
In fact you are ENCOURAGED TO CHEAT in AMOK! -- not in ways to 'count coup' but to find ways to make your partner better able to deal with real criminals.
It doesn't matter whether you learned the technique from Tom, learned it in Karate class 20 years ago, were taught it in BJJ or boxing or Systema or made it up yourself:
If it works it is good -- if it works and it is safe to train it becomes part of practice and opposition work.
AMOK! has it's own 'set of techniques' that are taught as basics to beginners and everyone practices these but no one is ever told "this is the only right way" or "Tom says we have to do it this way."
In my experience, Tom has found most of the 'best ways' but he is the first to tell everyone, "Go prove it for yourself against a full speed attack and in opposition where you have no idea WHAT attack will be offered."
Example: Tom is to my knowledge NOT a BJJ expert, so even though he is the founder of AMOK!, the lead instructor for "ground fighting with knives" may NOT be him -- those who develop and teach this part of the curriculum are BOTH "grappling experts" and "AMOK! instructors".
Tom is the least "not invented here" MA founder or expert I have ever met.
AMOK! has also simplified much of the Indonesian traditional techniques.
This isn't a big deal, it's not really that the AMOK! way is BETTER, but that it is simpler and less time consuming and (we believe) more time effective.
E.g., if you can learn 1/2 the techniques and spend 1/2 the time training even those with 95% of the same results then time and money spent are more effective for that 1/4 investment. (Not a great analogy but you get the idea.)
MERELY AN EXAMPLE:
AMOK! only teachs and formally practices 7 strikes -- is this better than 9 or 12?
The idea is that 7 is ENOUGH, and if we do these correctly we can move onto other more important areas or more complex variations.
BTW, the main "strike training" in AMOK! is the "49s'", i.e., 7 strikes combined with 7 strikes (7x7) to make 49 possibilities for combinations and transitions.
Part of the reason for the reduction in number is to make this N x N number reasonably small to practice every day, even for uncommitted students.
Once you can do the 49's correctly, then smoothly, then rapidly, you add "check hand" moves, stepping in all directions or circular movement, short/far strikes etc in all combinations for personal (e.g, solo) training.
As to AMOK! folks thinking the "knife is the ultimate weapon" this is almost never the case. Practically all of our folks are "gun guys" or at least considering getting a CHL.
Many AMOK! participants are BJJ practitioners.
A big part of what we are training is how to DETECT a threat, AVOID the threat, SURVIVE an initial criminal attack, and ACCESS our tools (knife, gun, stick, pepper spray, etc.).
We consider Accessing (that is surviving the attack and deploying a weapon) to be the most important skill set for physical Self-Defense (after avoiding the attack all together.)
Accessing includes "running away" -- getting enough time and space to safely disengage OR access a dominant weapon is the key to going home safe.
A lot of the folks in AMOK! have DBMA linkages (Dog Brothers) and we share many of the same attitudes; frequently AMOK! groups are also sponsoring DBMA (e.g., Mark Denny etc) seminars.
There are a lot of us with Systema training or experience, and in Central Texas the most active AMOK! trainers bring in folks like Sonny Puzikas for weapons and other training.
We do a significant amount of pressure testing with Airsoft -- force on force -- and a lot of our folks have some linkage to Gabe Suarez and SI where they primarily focus on firearms work.
If you can't use your magic voodoo-do to avoid getting shot by the Airsoft then you REALLY don't have a defense against the gun (yet). BTW, if you magic works, then we want to learn it.
Gun work is explicitly part of AMOK! -- staying alive to access, accessing, getting off the X, retention if the gun is being grabbed, shooting on the run, etc.
We regularly, perhaps once or so each quarter, travel as a group to the gun range where we do live fire movement drills and instruction.
One other thing about AMOK! that is an advantage over MOST other "knife training" is that there is a (growing) world wide and US community of folks training it and welcoming others to training.
There are a few other "knife instructors" in addition to Tom Sotis that I would recommend (some even have commercial videos which Tom largely lacks) but the AMOK! groups are starting to be available in many areas.
We are very active across Central Texas for instance, but there are big AMOK! communities all over the states and especially in places like South Africa and Australia.
AMOK! is not as popular as BJJ (different purpose as well) but most big cities have AMOK! groups.
We are largely non-commercial (doesn't necessarily mean free).
Most of our groups are not TRYING to make money beyond paying for the gym/venue or having seminar funds to bring in Tom and other great trainers.
Maybe some few people do make money with an AMOK! school but they are the exception rather than the rule.
Making money from AMOK! is not frowned upon, just there are only a few doing that.
Other AMOK! schools are associated with some other MA like BJJ to supplement the skill sets of those practitioners.
I will answer further questions here, or you can visit our most active forum at http://www.combativestraininggroup.com
You are welcome to join us if you are ever nearby Austin, TX, Killeen, etc and feel free to call me:
512 761 5412 (that's a Google Voice number so 24/7 is ok but you also stand a 50/50 chance of getting voice mail so LEAVE A MESSAGE.)
Last edited by herbm; 3/19/2012 6:49am at . Reason: spelling, typos
3/19/2012 8:06am, #17
Thank you very much for your post.
Any trainers in Canada?
3/19/2012 9:20am, #18
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Even as an American I know that Canada is a big place... :)
Looking on the web site, however I don't see any trainers/instructors listed for Canada -- that was surprising to me.
If you give me an idea of the area I will ask around.
3/19/2012 2:24pm, #19
Sounds like a pretty cool system you have there. If you have any guys coming through Pensacola and want to spar, let me know. We do knife and stick.
3/19/2012 3:54pm, #20