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  1. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2006 11:57pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    Think of a glass bullet. It hits the target and instead of expending it's energy penetrating, it shatters. The shards do all the damage, and all the energy is expended in the target, giving it excellent stopping power.

    Generally speaking, the bullets are hollowed out and filled with fine shot suspended in some sort of thick liquid. There is zero danger of overpenetration, but severe damage is caused when the round strikes tissue. Because the hemmoraging can be so severe, a limb shot resulting in a kill (in time) is very feasable.
    Two Questions:

    1. Would that make it a better self defense round then the Black Talon?

    2. Know a good place/company to order Frangible Ammunition if I wanted to play with it?
  2. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 12:03am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm gonna say no on that first one. The powder charges are different for frangibles and they might not work optimally in you pistol. If your target is sporting leathers they might afford him some excellent protection from frangibles. You're better off with hollowpoints, especially if you're paking 9mm. Penetration is only for the devil if you're on a tac team raiding a dynamite lab with a preschool for a front operation.

    Google "glazier safety slug" or "glaiser" if the first one yields no reulsts. They're fucking expenisve, so only buy enough to sate your curiosity. Take them to the range, fire them into a rack of uncooked ribs and see how you like them.
  3. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 2:15am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    They're fucking expenisve, so only buy enough to sate your curiosity. Take them to the range, fire them into a rack of uncooked ribs and see how you like them.
    Make sure you also fire a couple hollow point and full metal jacket rounds into your rack of ribs for comparison.
  4. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 10:05am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And bring barbeque sauce!!!
  5. Don Gwinn is offline
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    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 11:07am

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     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's actually spelled "Glaser." They are expensive, and there is some question as to how effective they really are terminally compared to hollow point designs like what you already have.

    The hollow point is designed to penetrate while making as wide a wound channel as possible and damaging the tissue along the channel as much as possible. If the hollow point gets plugged by cloth, for instance, it may not open--but then you still get the performance of a FMJ round without the hollow point--basically, more penetration, but possibly less energy transferred into the target in the form of damage along the way.

    The frangible is designed to do damage inside the body as well, but it is not designed to penetrate. The more you want a bullet to penetrate, the more you need it to stay together in one mass. This is referred to as weight retention or mass retention and it's studied pretty carefully. This is why big game hunters after animals like elephant speak of using "solids." They're using slugs turned from solid copper, which don't open up or deform, but DO retain almost all their mass as they pass through tough hide and several feet of flesh. These things penetrate a LONG way.

    Soft points and hollow points are designed to deform, but as hard as they hit, that can often mean that fragments will break off. Each fragment has much less mass and loses its energy fairly quickly; the main mass is also that much smaller than it was and also loses energy more quickly than it would if it had remained whole. But if you want to design the best possible self defense bullet, you balance this with the need for expansion. As in all things, you want as much as you can get without being too much. How far can I make this round expand and still retain enough mass to get the penetration I want?

    The frangibles are special-purpose rounds that throw that balancing act out the window. Their whole design is intended to stop penetration and ricochet as much as possible, and the only way you can absorb that much energy and not direct it off in another direction (or through the barrier) is to soak it up in destroying the projectile itself.
    Unfortunately, you can't make it do this against a wall and not against a rib, so the concern is that frangibles often result in fairly shallow wounds that look horrible (because there will be awful bleeding and tissue will be mangled locally) but are not deep enough to incapacitate the attacker.
    *********************************************
  6. Honey Badger is offline
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    Sardonic or Sarcastic?

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 11:17am

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     Style: Filipino Kun Tao, Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aren't Golden Sabres re-packaged Black Talons?
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    I would so do Buttsecks.
  7. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 12:27pm

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     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nope. I believe the Golden Saber was on the market for years before the Black Talon was introduced, but in any case, here are photos of the two bullets (not the same caliber, but the bullet design will still show the differences.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Black Talon.jpg 
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  8. saturnjunkie is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2006 2:02pm


     Style: FMA & judo-ultra noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If we're on the topic of a good personal defense round I like the federal hydra-shok.

    Good punch, though a bit pricey so not what you would call a target shooting bullet.

    Info on it:


    Some more info:



    check out the expansion on this sucker..
  9. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 11:34am

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnjunkie
    If we're on the topic of a good personal defense round I like the federal hydra-shok.

    Good punch, though a bit pricey so not what you would call a target shooting bullet.

    Info on it:


    Some more info:



    check out the expansion on this sucker..
    Do you carry those?

    Where do you pick them up?
  10. saturnjunkie is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 2:40pm


     Style: FMA & judo-ultra noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I load those for personal defense in my 38 special. Haven't bought any for the 45 yet. They shoot pretty well from the few I've shot at the range.

    I just buy mine at the gun store.
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