Kendo and Iaido

**rokutanda** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 12:40pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

Shinkendo is based on Obata-sensei's extensive martial arts training in legitimate sword arts and aikijujutsu. It is open about it's origins and generally acknowledged as one of the best of the modern schools. Obata-sensei himself is the real deal, despite his TMNT movie stuntman career. You could do worse.

Kaze Arashi Ryu is a school that was basically completely made up, but masquerades as koryu. In short, frauds. For a detailed debunking, see here.

I'm not familiar with them, but I suspect they are frauds based on the head instructor Rico Guy claiming 8th dan. There are only 3 or 4 hachidan instructors in the US, all of them old Japanese men. He ain't one of them.
That's Phil Ortisz's school, it's the real deal.

ojgsxr6: you may want to check out all the schools for yourself, as I did. All I can say from personal experience is that the Shinkendo guys' techniques looked very sloppy to me (they were performing partnered drills on the day I visited which I had also done in iaido at Budokaikan), although maybe I'm not qualified to judge. Perhaps form isn't something important within the art of shinkendo, or at least not at that particular dojo, whereas it was when practicing the same drills at Budokaikan. But then again, they do a lot more partnered drills at shinkendo whereas it was a relatively minor part or our iaido training, which was about 70% forms.

Rico Guy, at least from what he tells us, was the first African-American to earn a black belt in kendo in the U.S., many, many years ago under Otani-sensei (from whom he also learned iaido). Sensei Guy was Phil Ortiz's sempai under Otani early on. As I mentioned before I've seen Phil Ortiz's school demonstrate several times, and I personally prefer Rico's harder style -- cuts are stronger, more convincing and precise, whereas Phil Ortiz's students (even the black belts) just seem to go through the motions without a fierce determination to slash. Perhaps simply a matter of stylistic preference. I can't validate Rico Guy's credentials or lineage, just reporting what was told to me - a lot of the conflict/misrepresentation seems to stem from Mr. Guy's race. African Americans were not highly regarded among the iaido groups in Japan, and thus Mr. Guy was not accredited among them per the (alleged) rank bestowed upon him by Mr. Otani. As far as training goes, in my opinion Mr. Guy is an excellent teacher of both kendo and iaido. But then again, you should see for yourself.

**NeilG** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 1:07pm

Dan ranks haven't been given out by individual sensei in the US for decades, as far as I know. All kendo rank is currently awarded by committee. 8th dan is the highest rank currently awarded and as far as I know Mr. Guy does not have that rank from AUSKF. So if he's claiming it, then it is either self-awarded or under some other less than mainstream association. AUSKF is the only federation in the continental US recognised by IKF.

There is a very short flash clip of "kendo in action" which shows Mr. Guy with a student, without bogu. It's a very peculiar clip in that it shows a sort of defence of a bad attack, in a way that we would never practice normally. Mr. Guy's dogi is worn very sloppily, looks like a karate uwagi worn with hakama and sticking out the sides. No 8 dan guy would let themselves be presented demonstrating such bad technique publicly with such sloppy dogi. Frankly, you couldn't pass a 2 dan exam looking like that.

As far as his 9 dan in iaido... I don't know what to make of that, either. He claims that the style is Omori-ryu, but Otani-sensei is Muso Shinden Ryu, of which Omori Ryu is a subset. You don't usually hear someone claiming that they study Omori Ryu. Its very peculiar.

**shinbushi** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 1:40pm

Originally Posted by ojgsxr6

After watching several Samurai movies I'm interested in learning how to fight with a katana. I do not want to do kata all day, and I'm nore interested in the Martial applications of sword fighting. Are there any shools that focus more on fighting than kata, like an ARMA for katana?

Try Shinkendo

ABOUT SHINKENDO JAPANESE SWORDSMANSHIP

After many years of study and mastery of many different schools in his native Japan, Obata Sensei came to America to distill all of the different aspects of Japanese Swordsmanship into one complete and comprehensive art. Obata Kaiso has dedicated over thirty years to teaching and researching the almost lost art of true Japanese Swordsmanship as it was practiced by the Samurai of Japan's feudal era.

Training revolves around our structure of "Gorin Goho Gogyo" (five equally balanced interweaving rings that symbolize the five major methods of technical study). This includes: Suburi (sword swinging drills), Tanrengata (solo forms), Battoho (combative drawing methods including Toyama-ryu Iaido), Tachiuchi (pre-arranged sparring) and Tameshigiri/Shizan (cutting straw and bamboo targets). Students typically train using a bokuto (wooden sword), and later advance to training with iaito (or mogito, non-sharpened sword) and finally with shinken, or 'live blade'.

While Shinkendo requires rigorous physical training, depth of coordination, and intense focus, one of the most important aspects of Shinkendo is the emphasis on spiritual forging, which inspires "Bushi Damashii" (the samurai/ warrior spirit), a quality that we feel is as relevant now as it was hundreds of years ago. Proper practice of Shinkendo should provide one with not only a strong body and mind, but also a calm, clear and focused spirit.

Sorry but did not see the other posts on Shinkendo

**hl1978** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 1:48pm

Here is an opinion from else as to why iaido isn't as popular. I've seen a fair number of people try it after seeing movies or cartoons, and walk away disapointed or frustrated.

The fact that there is no opponent does not help. To the average teenage boy, whacking your classmates with a bamboo kendo sword or throwing them across the judo mats can be a fairly satisfying release of energy. Iaido uses real swords, but the novice levels are hardly action-packed: this is not kung-fu fighting. Like golf, the early stages can be solitary, and require an abundance of patience and self-discipline. Having a real samurai sword strapped to you might sound pretty cool, but practice drawing it a hundred times or so, and it won’t seem all that different from practising your swing.

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 1:54pm

Basically what I'm looking for is Fuedal Japanese fencing. I will check out the school in Farmingville as it's the only one on Long Island, the others are in Manhattan, NYC.

Edit: Shinkendo is in Queens, still an hour ride.

Also, hl1978, the Jersey Sabaki challenge is coming up, will I see you there?

**hl1978** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 2:05pm

Originally Posted by ojgsxr6

Also, hl1978, the Jersey Sabaki challenge is coming up, will I see you there?

got a link to it? I'll have to get some info on it!

**rokutanda** · Posted On: 7/06/2006 7:06pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

Dan ranks haven't been given out by individual sensei in the US for decades, as far as I know. All kendo rank is currently awarded by committee. 8th dan is the highest rank currently awarded and as far as I know Mr. Guy does not have that rank from AUSKF. So if he's claiming it, then it is either self-awarded or under some other less than mainstream association. AUSKF is the only federation in the continental US recognised by IKF.

There is a very short flash clip of "kendo in action" which shows Mr. Guy with a student, without bogu. It's a very peculiar clip in that it shows a sort of defence of a bad attack, in a way that we would never practice normally. Mr. Guy's dogi is worn very sloppily, looks like a karate uwagi worn with hakama and sticking out the sides. No 8 dan guy would let themselves be presented demonstrating such bad technique publicly with such sloppy dogi. Frankly, you couldn't pass a 2 dan exam looking like that.

As far as his 9 dan in iaido... I don't know what to make of that, either. He claims that the style is Omori-ryu, but Otani-sensei is Muso Shinden Ryu, of which Omori Ryu is a subset. You don't usually hear someone claiming that they study Omori Ryu. Its very peculiar.

Yeah, that video is actually me doing the attack, about a month after I started
kendo, so I don't really know what I'm doing. I was still learning footwork at the time. *m(_ _)m

I think the only reason he used that clip is because one of the students brought his camera in that day and he must not have much other footage to use - it's really, really old; I think his website was only created within the past year, and
the footage is from about 5 years ago.

He is wearing a karate jacket because he teaches 3 classes in a row - goju ryu, then iaido, then kendo, back-to-back. He just slipped on his hakama after the goju class to teach iaido instead of getting into the full iaido/kendo gear.

As far as his ranking and Otani's styles, I can't really say anything because I never bothered to question him or research his background at the time - I just enjoyed the classes greatly and found him to be a better instructor than at other schools I shopped around at. All I do know is that he studied under Otani decades ago when he first came to the U.S., and went to train with other instructors in Japan a few times.

He does claim grandmastership in his own style, gokempojutsu (a combination of goju ryu and jujutsu), so the whole bullshido thing might come into play there as well as with the kendo ranking. His classes in gokempo, however, were pretty hardcore, lots of sparring and tough workouts. His gokempo students are no pushovers.

**NeilG** · Posted On: 7/07/2006 10:08am

Originally Posted by rokutanda

Yeah, that video is actually me doing the attack, about a month after I started
kendo, so I don't really know what I'm doing. I was still learning footwork at the time.

Even worse. After a month in a traditional kendo dojo, if you were hitting anything at all it would be an upheld shinai. There's no way you would be engaged in whatever the hell that was, ever, and especially not after a month.

I think the only reason he used that clip is because one of the students brought his camera in that day and he must not have much other footage to use

Still, that's the clip he chooses to present "kendo in action". So I draw my conclusions from that. Better he had left it as "coming soon" like the iaido link.

Furthermore, I discovered from a thread on e-budo that he has an association with James Benson, who claims to be Yagyu-ryu to a chorus of raised eyebrows.

There's a ton of good kendo and iaido in NYC. I think there's no reason to go anywhere near this guy.

**rokutanda** · Posted On: 7/07/2006 10:59am

Originally Posted by NeilG

Even worse. After a month in a traditional kendo dojo, if you were hitting anything at all it would be an upheld shinai. There's no way you would be engaged in whatever the hell that was, ever, and especially not after a month.
Still, that's the clip he chooses to present "kendo in action". So I draw my conclusions from that. Better he had left it as "coming soon" like the iaido link.

Furthermore, I discovered from a thread on e-budo that he has an association with James Benson, who claims to be Yagyu-ryu to a chorus of raised eyebrows.

There's a ton of good kendo and iaido in NYC. I think there's no reason to go anywhere near this guy.

Yes - that short clip was the only drill we ever did in class, so it must suck.

I would actually recommend other kendo schools to people who want to learn that style in NYC, as it's not Rico's strength, but I still believe his iaido is strong. I think that actually checking out a school's classes or demos in person is a better way to judge the quality of instruction than googling info and gossip online.

Not sure what kind of association Mr. Guy has with James Benson, but I don't think that would have any influence on his own teaching methods.

I'm not trying to defend everything Mr. Guy does (I left his school years ago), but I don't think one should so easily pass judgement never having seen one of his classes. You seem to indicate that shinkendo is a more reputable style,
but I personally went to check out a class to see if it was something I'd want
to take up.

Here are my observations:

In Mr. Guy's iaido class, the bokken is treated as a live blade - when it is "sheathed" in the hakama/belt, your thumb is always kept on the tsuka as
with a shinken, in order to prevent the sword from falling out of the scabbard.

When you draw the bokken, as with a real sword you twist your left hand,
push the tsuka to release the blade, pull back your left hand and draw.

When holding the sword in the standard two hand grip (I'm don't
remember all the Japanese terminology), you leave at least one finger's
space between the right hand (top) thumb and the tsuka and both wrists
are turned slightly in in order to protect them from exposure to an opponent's
sword.

We were taught to parry the opponents blade with the flat of the sword,
not the edge/blade, at an angle.

When "sheathing" the bokken, perform the same motions as you would when
putting back a shinken.

I saw NONE of this at the shinkendo school. Students (green belts, even)
just treating the bokken like, well, a wooden toy. If they were given a live
blade right then and there, I could picture many fingers on the floor. Parrying was done with whatever surface happened to be there meeting the opponent's sword at the time, most oftenly the edge itself, and right thumbs were all right up rubbing against the tsuka.

Grant you, I have not seen the shinkendo students handling live blades and do
not know if they're taught the details only once they do, but to me it makes
more sense to prevent bad habits (even when doing partnered bokken drills which might not be performed with shinken) from the start. Even after learning the "proper" way with bokken, I still managed to cut myself every once in a while after I moved on to a live blade.

I never advanced past a beginner's stage in iaido, so I'm not qualified to adequately judge a school, but I think that details such as the ones I mentioned must count toward something in rating quality of instruction.

**NeilG** · Posted On: 7/07/2006 12:11pm

I think shinkendo has some problems with knock-off schools due to their high profile. I have no direct experience, but here is an interesting article from the point of view of a traditional student at a seminar.

WRT Mr. Guy, I normally wouldn't be so critical of something I've never seen in person, but when I see obvious misrepresentation of rank, I get concerned.