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  1. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 3:24pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What was the attitude of TMAs before the UFC?

    For the purposes of this thread, I define "TMA" as "martial art that is ****".

    OK, as a fairly young guy, I don't have too many serious memories before 1993, and I definitely didn't experience martial arts at that time.

    So I am curious, BEFORE the UFC, what was the attitude of TMA'ers to the effectiveness of their style in one-on-one confrontations?

    The reason I ask is that these days you go to a Wing Chun school, or you go to a Ninja school and they will tell you and their students that they "train for the street".
    Did they say this before the UFC? Or did they think that they could hack it in any kind of fight?

    And one other thing that I notice is growing in popularity amongst the bullshit artists. The whole multiple attackers/weapons etc etc scenario based training. As in, TMAs now claim that they are more interested in the "full spectrum" of self defence, not just the narrow view of one-on-one encounters.
    Was this brought on by the realisation that their style can never compete in modern day MMA, let alone early UFCs?

    Ninjutsu is possibly the worst for this stuff. They claim all this stuff about controlling your space, disarming your opponent verbally etc etc. ie all stuff that you would have learned naturally as a human being if you actually had a life instead of playing with your nunchuks.

    In addition there is the "no rules" crap they come up with and the "too deadly for the ring" BS.
    Did they say this before the UFC? Or did they believe beforehand that their style would be good enough anyway?

    I hope this post has made some sort of sense....

    The over-riding question is: Have TMA'ers shifted the goalposts of their training due to the failure of their style in UFC?

    If I were to hazard a guess, I would imagine that before the UFC, TMA'ers were pretty convinced of the fighting abilities of their sensei or grandmaster....and that it's only after years of watching the UFC that they've seen reason to shift their goalposts.

    Jesus, I suck at asking questions.
  2. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 4:12pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I get exactly what you're saying, and I'm curious about it as well.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  3. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 4:15pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have TMA'ers shifted the goalposts of their training due to the failure of their style in UFC?
    Yes.

    To beat the nanny filter, I'll also say that MMA has also evolved from the first UFCs.
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  4. Teryan is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 4:35pm


     Style: BJJ/ Judo/ MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    14 years ago when I started TKD, their was very little in the way of training for multiple opponents. Occasionally their would be two or three on one (the one just ran around the dojang staying away from them).

    Now when I go back, I hear things like "The UFC is stupid: 'Lets fight until some one gets hurt.'" The mentality seems to be that TKD still works, but it has different training methods. Same mountain, different trails thinking.

    Until about two years ago, we were only on the ground to do stretching and pushups. Then I was shown a "mount escape", now I am seeing more on the ground of how to get up "effetely". It might work against some one who does not know what they are doing, but any judo yellow belt could defeat them.

    I believe that the UFC is having an impact on the TMA crowd, but not a big enought of one.
  5. broken fingers is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 4:42pm


     Style: mixed

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I had one of those TMA rules guys. he told me that ANY TMAist that bother going into UFC will almost definitey win. it is just that most real hardcore MA practicioner does not feel the need to show off their skill...
  6. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 5:03pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Intellectual dishonesty comes in many shapes and forms.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  7. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 5:08pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When the UFC first came out with Royce as a vechicle to promote BJJ I was a green belt in TKD and studying Kung-Fu/Kickboxing on the side.

    My "kung fu" I later determined was some kind of Karate/Kung Fu hybrid. Back then being a total noob and didn't know it was a BS kung fu, nor did my instructor. One time we went to a seminar held by the head of the organization and he talked about how the UFC wasn't realistic and in the street, on the ground, things like eye gouging, throat strikes and biting were our weapons, so naturally Kung Fu practioners would not do well because all of their ground weapons had been taken away.

    I didn't really give his explanations much thought, I just considered what my Kung Fu instructor had said when he watched Royce's domination in those early UFCs,
    "That guy is dangerous"

    So I guess some TMAers back then looked at those fights and saw a huge hole in their skill set and started to try train for the ground, but I think a majority of them went the "well in the street...." route and are still there.
    Last edited by Ronin.74; 4/14/2006 5:09pm at . Reason: mistyped
  8. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 5:22pm

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     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSparrow
    For the purposes of this thread, I define "TMA" as "martial art that is ****".

    OK, as a fairly young guy, I don't have too many serious memories before 1993, and I definitely didn't experience martial arts at that time.

    So I am curious, BEFORE the UFC, what was the attitude of TMA'ers to the effectiveness of their style in one-on-one confrontations?

    The reason I ask is that these days you go to a Wing Chun school, or you go to a Ninja school and they will tell you and their students that they "train for the street".
    Did they say this before the UFC? Or did they think that they could hack it in any kind of fight?

    And one other thing that I notice is growing in popularity amongst the bullshit artists. The whole multiple attackers/weapons etc etc scenario based training. As in, TMAs now claim that they are more interested in the "full spectrum" of self defence, not just the narrow view of one-on-one encounters.
    Was this brought on by the realisation that their style can never compete in modern day MMA, let alone early UFCs?

    Ninjutsu is possibly the worst for this stuff. They claim all this stuff about controlling your space, disarming your opponent verbally etc etc. ie all stuff that you would have learned naturally as a human being if you actually had a life instead of playing with your nunchuks.

    In addition there is the "no rules" crap they come up with and the "too deadly for the ring" BS.
    Did they say this before the UFC? Or did they believe beforehand that their style would be good enough anyway?

    I hope this post has made some sort of sense....

    The over-riding question is: Have TMA'ers shifted the goalposts of their training due to the failure of their style in UFC?

    If I were to hazard a guess, I would imagine that before the UFC, TMA'ers were pretty convinced of the fighting abilities of their sensei or grandmaster....and that it's only after years of watching the UFC that they've seen reason to shift their goalposts.

    Jesus, I suck at asking questions.
    Good question. When I studied Goju, I had no idea about the UCF. Nonetheless, it was clear that Goju wouldn't necessarily turn you into a fighting machine. There were tough guys who fought constantly and applied their insights in nasty situations, and there were nerdy 'I am van Damme' types who were lame. The diversity of the dojo made it perfectly clear that what made fighters was fighting, fitness and courage, not rank. Good examples of this are blokes like Bob Jones (and his security/bouncer mates) in Australia - they were all street-fighting rough nuts before they learned a 'TMA' (Goju), and they were even rougher nuts after. The MA sharpened the experiences and instincts they already had, but it could have 'produced' them from nothing. They were some of the first vocal and commercial advocates of cross-training and 'freestyle' martial arts, by the way.
    Last edited by DAYoung; 4/14/2006 5:27pm at .
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  9. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 5:35pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I suspect that the collective response of shitty martial arts to the UFC has been to close their eyes, plug their ears with their fingers, and yell "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" at the top of their lungs.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  10. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2006 5:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    I suspect that the collective response of shitty martial arts to the UFC has been to close their eyes, plug their ears with their fingers, and yell "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" at the top of their lungs.
    In bad Japanese.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
    click here to order on Amazon

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