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  1. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 2:25am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with Mongo

    Quote Originally Posted by Daugherty
    But when you take a person off their feet you are supposed to return them to the ground safely.
    In practice we used crash pads to practice our high-amplitude throws in order to protect our training partners. In five years of wrestling I never saw anyone disqualified for stunning an opponent in competition. Then again I saw very few people stunned, which supports Mongo and Judobum's points. Your mileage may have varied.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  2. Daugherty is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 3:17am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    In five years of wrestling I never saw anyone disqualified for stunning an opponent in competition. Then again I saw very few people stunned, which supports Mongo and Judobum's points. Your mileage may have varied.
    Same here. Usually if a person was slammed they were given a second and asked if they wanted to keep going. I think it's what you are thinking of as 'stunned' versus what I am thinking of.
  3. AFS is offline

    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 8:34am

    supporting member
     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My 2 cents:
    There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

    This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"
  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 10:50am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AFS
    My 2 cents:
    There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

    This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"

    Sounds like cool stuff. If I could ask, do you think you could find the reference again?
  5. babo78 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 12:59pm


     Style: Yudo, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AFS
    My 2 cents:
    There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

    This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"
    How was the body mechanics of it? Is it because when you "slap" the ground with your arm during ukemi, the force of impact travel through the arm and hit body core then absorbed?
  6. daimyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 6:23am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe ukemi works, I was thrown with ushiro goshi lat night and I wasn't able to free my arm I noticed a huge difference on the force of impact. I was actually winded.

    Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I start to worry when both my arms are trapped and I'm unable to breakfall.
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 7:23am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    learning to be relaxed and not stiffen up when being thrown is proabably the most important thing about taking any throw be it wrestling or Judo.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 10:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, it took three visits, but as promised I did manage to ask these questions to Shiro Oishi. Now, I want to make it clear that it would be absurd to think that his answers are somehow speaking for all of Judo or Wrestling. They are just his answers. Also, keep in mind that I do not train grappling. So, not only are these answers my interpretation, but they are tainted by my experience (or lack thereof). I also spoke with two of my friends who wrestled in HS and college and verified they spent very little time practicing any particular "falling" technique.


    This is what I got out of the conversations with Mr. Oishi, in no particular order:

    • Judo throws are designed to hurt the the person being thrown. In competition, falling safely is the responsibility of the person being thrown.
    • Folkstyle and freestyle wrestling throws are not generally designed to hurt the opponent. Thus, falling safely becomes less important.
    • Traditional Judo Tatame is not very forgiving. Falling safely was historically more significant.
    • Wrestling is an art historically meant for the young practitioner. Judo was meant to be practiced into old age when knowing how to fall properly becomes very important.
    • Judo has the gi. The secure grips prevent the ability of the person being thrown from succeeding with other, more active, and riskier methods of falling (turnouts).
    • The throws in Greco-Roman wrestling are, in fact, designed to hurt the opponent. But, since there is no gi, the lack of grips makes a clean high-amplitude throw more difficult to achieve.
    • The fact that the injury rate in Judo is not out of line with wrestling is because of the falling techniques in Judo.
    • Higher level Judoka will also attempt turnouts. This can work for them because they are also in tip-top shape and their years of practicing Ukemi allows them to transition quickly if the turnout fails.


    I want to thank everyone here who contributed to this thread. Your responses allowed me to ask seemingly intelligent questions with good follow ups. (I hope this doesn't fool anyone. :smile:)
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/05/2006 10:41pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
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  9. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2006 1:54am

    supporting member
     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daimyo
    I believe ukemi works, I was thrown with ushiro goshi lat night and I wasn't able to free my arm I noticed a huge difference on the force of impact. I was actually winded.

    Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I start to worry when both my arms are trapped and I'm unable to breakfall.
    i've always felt that one of the benefits of breakfall training is to prevent just that - ending up with your arms pinned (or broken) underneath you.

    even if slapping the ground doesn't necessarily do much force distribution, it does keep your arms safely occupied during impact.

    of more use for beginners than experts, to be sure...
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