Falling: Judo vs. Wrestling

[jnp]

I agree with Mongo

But when you take a person off their feet you are supposed to return them to the ground safely.

In practice we used crash pads to practice our high-amplitude throws in order to protect our training partners. In five years of wrestling I never saw anyone disqualified for stunning an opponent in competition. Then again I saw very few people stunned, which supports Mongo and Judobum's points. Your mileage may have varied.

[Daugherty]

In five years of wrestling I never saw anyone disqualified for stunning an opponent in competition. Then again I saw very few people stunned, which supports Mongo and Judobum's points. Your mileage may have varied.

Same here. Usually if a person was slammed they were given a second and asked if they wanted to keep going. I think it's what you are thinking of as 'stunned' versus what I am thinking of.

[AFS]

My 2 cents:
There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"

[Tom Kagan]

My 2 cents:
There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"

Sounds like cool stuff. If I could ask, do you think you could find the reference again?

[babo78]

My 2 cents:
There is a study where they measured Uke's impact on the ground when being thrown. They did that ( german sports science study if I remember correctly ) to investigate if it is the arm which absorbs most of the impact . The conclusion was that the impact is absorbed by the body's core with body tension being the most important factor.

This result was quite an eye-opener - cause when you learn your ukemi a lot of coaches teach the importance of that arm " 45 degrees to the body, a loud noise equalling a good breakfall"

How was the body mechanics of it? Is it because when you "slap" the ground with your arm during ukemi, the force of impact travel through the arm and hit body core then absorbed?

[daimyo]

I believe ukemi works, I was thrown with ushiro goshi lat night and I wasn't able to free my arm I noticed a huge difference on the force of impact. I was actually winded.

Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I start to worry when both my arms are trapped and I'm unable to breakfall.

[Goju - Joe]

learning to be relaxed and not stiffen up when being thrown is proabably the most important thing about taking any throw be it wrestling or Judo.

[Tom Kagan]

Okay, it took three visits, but as promised I did manage to ask these questions to Shiro Oishi. Now, I want to make it clear that it would be absurd to think that his answers are somehow speaking for all of Judo or Wrestling. They are just his answers. Also, keep in mind that I do not train grappling. So, not only are these answers my interpretation, but they are tainted by my experience (or lack thereof). I also spoke with two of my friends who wrestled in HS and college and verified they spent very little time practicing any particular "falling" technique.


This is what I got out of the conversations with Mr. Oishi, in no particular order:

• Judo throws are designed to hurt the the person being thrown. In competition, falling safely is the responsibility of the person being thrown.
• Folkstyle and freestyle wrestling throws are not generally designed to hurt the opponent. Thus, falling safely becomes less important.
• Traditional Judo Tatame is not very forgiving. Falling safely was historically more significant.
• Wrestling is an art historically meant for the young practitioner. Judo was meant to be practiced into old age when knowing how to fall properly becomes very important.
• Judo has the gi. The secure grips prevent the ability of the person being thrown from succeeding with other, more active, and riskier methods of falling (turnouts).
• The throws in Greco-Roman wrestling are, in fact, designed to hurt the opponent. But, since there is no gi, the lack of grips makes a clean high-amplitude throw more difficult to achieve.
• The fact that the injury rate in Judo is not out of line with wrestling is because of the falling techniques in Judo.
• Higher level Judoka will also attempt turnouts. This can work for them because they are also in tip-top shape and their years of practicing Ukemi allows them to transition quickly if the turnout fails.

I want to thank everyone here who contributed to this thread. Your responses allowed me to ask seemingly intelligent questions with good follow ups. (I hope this doesn't fool anyone. :smile:)

[pauli]

I believe ukemi works, I was thrown with ushiro goshi lat night and I wasn't able to free my arm I noticed a huge difference on the force of impact. I was actually winded.

Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I start to worry when both my arms are trapped and I'm unable to breakfall.

i've always felt that one of the benefits of breakfall training is to prevent just that - ending up with your arms pinned (or broken) underneath you.

even if slapping the ground doesn't necessarily do much force distribution, it does keep your arms safely occupied during impact.

of more use for beginners than experts, to be sure...