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  1. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2006 5:34pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpaladin
    Wrestlers are usually just tough enough to take the fall.

    Yeah

    Ask Ken Shamrock about being "tough enough" to take a fall in wrestling
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 2:28pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, Mr. Oishi didn't have much time today. He was off to play some lawyer on Law and Order and was pissed it wasn't a speaking part.

    He did confirm my original speculation that holding on helps you pull your head up while you're being thrown, however. I'll probably get another chance to see him within a week or so to discuss why a wrestler doesn't seem to care about that.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 4/19/2006 2:31pm at . Reason: your -> you're
  3. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 6:50pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing about holding on when you're being thrown is it will tend to move your back down to the mat. To spin out of a throw in mid-air you need to push off and let go. It's hard to describe and honestly not a lot of people have the reflexes and kinesthetic sense (the sense of your body in open space) to do it.

    So if I'm caught in a hip throw and take off my feet, rather than holding on I push away with my hand and spin my legs out. When you're going over in a hip throw your body is rotating onto your back so your push sets you going the other way. Throwing your legs out spins you so that you land on your front instead of your back, sort of like a sprawl. It's very hard to describe and like I said it's not easy to do but if you look at high level fighters, that's their defense. If you hold on you may land in a somewhat more controlled fashion with your head off the mat but you will take a score. Plus if you have proper body control you should be more than capable of keeping your head off the mat during a fall without holding on.
    Last edited by Judobum; 4/19/2006 6:55pm at .
  4. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 6:54pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Ouch.



    Wouldn't you say such a claim would ultimately mean that ukemi is unimportant because wrestlers are not injured left and right by falling?



    I happen to be an acquaintance of Shiro Oishi. He is both a wrestling and Judo champion. If I have the time tomorrow to visit and he's so inclined to humor me, I'm going to ask him about this.
    I'd say that the pic above isn't typical in a wrestling match. For sure they happen but not all the time. In judo high amplitude throws are the norm and happen virtually every match.

    Do I need to breakfall in matches or randori? No. I definately am able to cushion myself by controlling my body when I'm thrown and that's definately what I do in competitions. Breakfalls are more to protect your body in practice. You get thown often and it's easier on your body to take the fall and breakfall to minimize the repeated impacts. That might be why wrestlers don't do ukemi actually since they likely don't get thrown a whole lot in practice.

    I'd definatley be interested in what Mr. Oishi had to say on the topic though since he has experience from both sides.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 7:14pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    That might be why wrestlers don't do ukemi actually since they likely don't get thrown a whole lot in practice.
    This is incorrect. Most wrestlers practice high amplitude throws as they can result in a stunned or easily controllable opponent. Either of these situations often lead to an easy pin. When I wrestled, everyone was always looking for the big throw. Plus they're a hell of an ego boost for the thrower.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  6. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 7:26pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    This is incorrect. Most wrestlers practice high amplitude throws as they can result in a stunned or easily controllable opponent. Either of these situations often lead to an easy pin. When I wrestled, everyone was always looking for the big throw. Plus they're a hell of an ego boost for the thrower.
    See: Karelin lift.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  7. Daugherty is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 10:39pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    This is incorrect. Most wrestlers practice high amplitude throws as they can result in a stunned or easily controllable opponent. Either of these situations often lead to an easy pin. When I wrestled, everyone was always looking for the big throw. Plus they're a hell of an ego boost for the thrower.
    But when you take a person off their feet you are supposed to return them to the ground safely. If you're tossing them hard enough to stun them how is that not a disqualification? Not saying it can't happen, but it was the basic singles, doubles, or snap downs that I saw practiced most. Throws were just if you happened to catch one kind of thing.
  8. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2006 11:45pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I stand corrected on the wrestling throwing training. I still think that judo places a lot more emphasis and training time on throws though and thus needs more emphasis on protecting oneself while practicing them. I would guess that 60% of a judo practice involves throwing. I have no idea what the wrestling % would be but I imagine it's a lot less on average.
  9. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 1:23am

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I see, the design of the throws and the surface thrown on are very different between the 2. Wrestling mats are like pillows compared to the tatami that I currently train on and in wrestling (usually) the opponent is trying to get you down, not put you through the floor back first.

    In Judo, sometimes the throws have a whipping effect on your spine and neck, making the neccessity of ukemi more important. I have been slammed in wrestling but the mechanics were different.
  10. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2006 1:27am

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     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    In Judo, sometimes the throws have a whipping effect on your spine and neck, making the neccessity of ukemi more important.
    Don't get me started...
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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