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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the more common lower body throws (the sweeps, trips, osotogari, etc) in which you fall backwards, I think its advantageous to hold on.

    Think about a double leg. If you let go, you're not going to achieve a very good forward slant. The best forward leaning you can have would be by being closer to your opponent, or holding on.

    For upper body throws (seonage, hip throws, and that crazy one where you pick up your opponent by shoulder and nuts and throw him over your shoulder) it probably doesn't matter if you hold on or not. I don't think holding on will make any difference there.

  2. #22

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    Could the uke maintain his grip on the tori's gi in hopes of executing a counter throw? This seems like a possible explaination, but I suppose it depends upon how far they are into the throw.

    I'm not too familiar with countering beyond the occasional improvisatory attempt during randori, so anybody with more experience can support or shoot down my idea at will.

  3. #23
    Judobum's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll weigh in on this one. I've got very little wresling experience but over twenty years of judo experience so here's my two cents.

    Holding onto the arm during a hip throw is kind of odd since it doesn't really help you avoid an ippon and actually makes your fall more awkward. It sounds like more of a beginner reaction of grabbing the tori on the way over because they're fearful of falling. To avoid being thrown for ippon in that position you'd want to let go and push off your opponent and try to spin to your front. Once you're loaded up that far though you're pretty much done.

    In terms of the comments about ippon throwing in competition being kind of counter-productive for self-defence / MMA situations I'd partially agree. It often does finish in a position where you're giving your opponent your back but there's a couple reasons for this. One is that most people train for the sport aspect so that's not really an issue since you've likely won by ippon. Two is that the martial aspect of judo is aimed towards a confrontation that's not on mats. An ippon throw on a hard surface is likely to leave your opponent stunned or too injured to continue an attack on the ground, hence that is why it "wins" a match.

    In a MMA style match I definately don't go for ippon style throws since they leave you in a poor position on the ground. I focus more on front throws and picks to takedowns and better ne-waza positions.

  4. #24
    Otaku Waffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    Yeah, that is a rather annoying aspect of judo. I've got a Neil Adams DVD, and a lot (not most, but a significant number) of the competition examples end like this, it defeats the reason the sport was developed in the first place (i.e. to practice an effective martial art).
    We had one local Judo club that would sometimes organize tourneys that were a bit different in that the match wasn't over until one side had scored 3 ippons (or time ran out). It was...interesting. It was painful for the people who were outclassed (well, more then usual) but hey, they got at least thrice the learning opportunity.

    Apart from that, there were some interesting changes in tactics, certainly after this was organized a few times. There were people like me, who tried to go from the throw immediately into the groundwork (osae-komi for me) and the ippon specialists who'd try to slam you into the mat even harder then normal. Never seen anyone actually get knocked out but it knocked the fight out of a lot of people, together with their breath.

  5. #25
    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it Join us... or die
    Goju - Joe's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a side note

    My son started wrestling this year in school ( grade 7) He's ben doing Jiu-Jitsu for about 2 1/2 yearswas thrown and broke his arm.

    I don't know much about wrestling but they spend no time as far as I can see teaching the kids how to fall properly. My kid is good at wrestling and fearless because of the years of doing breakfalls. He has no worries about getting hurt when slammed or taken down and subsequently doesn't hold back and is very agressive.

    It seems to me that the one thing the Japanese MA have over wetern wrestling is their training in how to take a fall.

  6. #26
    Judobum's Avatar
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    I don't think wrestling really does much work with falling because they don't do a lot of high-amplitude throws like judo does. Plus what high-amplitude throws they do do (suplexes, etc) you can't really breakfall out of anyway.

    That and position is much more important in wrestling so once you're thrown you're automatically moving into position. Doing a breakfall would likely slow you down too much.

  7. #27
    Darkpaladin's Avatar
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    I would think that in Judo (or even JJ/BJJ) when you do a throw with the gi, the thrower will usually hold onto the gi if he intends to maintain control after the throw. If it's a projection throw, or said thrower is just trying to cause damage, then they'd let go. In competition with a gi, I'd assume that the former would usually be the case. If the throw isn't an ippon, then the thrower would at least then have an arm controlled and easy access to a pin/submission. In that case, the person being thrown is holding on to at least keep a minimum amount of control on the thrower. If they let go, there's a better chance of being completely dumped on their back, slammed hard, or totally helpless at the end.
    :google:

    Number of bottles of beer downed by me and my girlfriend within a half hour while playing the Channel 7 "how many times will they say 'snow' game" during the "Blizzard of '06": 3.5 each.

  8. #28
    Darkpaladin's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    It seems to me that the one thing the Japanese MA have over wetern wrestling is their training in how to take a fall.
    Wrestlers are usually just tough enough to take the fall.
    :google:

    Number of bottles of beer downed by me and my girlfriend within a half hour while playing the Channel 7 "how many times will they say 'snow' game" during the "Blizzard of '06": 3.5 each.

  9. #29
    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld supporting member
    Tom Kagan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    I don't think wrestling really does much work with falling because they don't do a lot of high-amplitude throws like judo does. Plus what high-amplitude throws they do do (suplexes, etc) you can't really breakfall out of anyway.
    Ouch.



    Wouldn't you say such a claim would ultimately mean that ukemi is unimportant because wrestlers are not injured left and right by falling?



    I happen to be an acquaintance of Shiro Oishi. He is both a wrestling and Judo champion. If I have the time tomorrow to visit and he's so inclined to humor me, I'm going to ask him about this.

  10. #30
    jnp's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I happen to be an acquaintance of Shiro Oishi. He is both a wrestling and Judo champion. If I have the time tomorrow to visit and he's so inclined to humor me, I'm going to ask him about this.
    I am interested in his response, if there is one.
    Shut the hell up and train.

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