Falling: Judo vs. Wrestling

**Lu Tze** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 10:30am

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

So, here you have Judo, practically giftwrapping the thrown person the space to get away, yet the person being thrown seems to hang on and stay close. But, in wrestling, the thrower is trying to stick close to the opponent and follow them down, yet the opponent is working to immediately make as much space as they can.

It's stuff like this which makes me curious why there seems to be some very profound differences under the surface in regards to how to fall. I suppose some of it could be explained by the rules. But, I suspect there is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

I'm figuring the Gi gives judoka a much better grip, making it easier to control their opponent on the way down so even if you let go it's going to be hard to roll away after a fall if he doesn't want you to. I've got no wrestling experience (and very little judo experience) however so that might be total bullshit.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 10:32am

I am not intimately familiar with wrestling. However in Judo since the match is over with 1 good throw the emphasis on recovery and over commitment is diminished.

In Judo you see a lot of guys go for things and nail thier opponents back to the mat and then get immediately rolled. Too late though. It was an Ippon and as bad a position the thrower is in NOW, he got the Ippon and the match is over.

In wrestling the match isn't over with that perfect Ippon and if you overcommitted and got rolled you may just lose the match. So I think there is slightly less emphasis on the contact with wrestlers, knowing that the scramble that will inevitably ensue is the critical next step. This is strikingly absent in Judo.

I will take this back to a personal level. I have a good hip throw. Last year I threw Chris Brennan with it, for what WOULD have been an Ippon in Judo. I didn't follow it all the way to the ground. Normally I would have, but without a gi to hold onto I was unable. He recovered very quickly and submitted me as we did a little psuedo-scramble. PERHAPS in a gi match I would have been able to hold better control of him during and after the throw and land in a better position. I can only speculate.

**Lu Tze** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 11:28am

Originally Posted by Yrkoon9

In Judo you see a lot of guys go for things and nail thier opponents back to the mat and then get immediately rolled. Too late though. It was an Ippon and as bad a position the thrower is in NOW, he got the Ippon and the match is over.

Yeah, that is a rather annoying aspect of judo. I've got a Neil Adams DVD, and a lot (not most, but a significant number) of the competition examples end like this, it defeats the reason the sport was developed in the first place (i.e. to practice an effective martial art).

**babo78** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 12:18pm

If I was throwing in gi match, I'd definitly want to hold their arm for better control during throw and positioning after completion of throw.

If I was being thrown in gi match, I do not want to hold onto his lapel or give arm.

On side note:

You really can't compare Judo throws to wrestling throws because their purpose is different in sport. In Judo, goal is to get a throw to win (Ippon) rather than as method to transition into ground work. In wrestling, goal is to get a throw to transition into ground work (Pin) for win.

When I'm in match or practice where there is no such thing as Ippon, my throws change. I usually go with them to position myself better and retain control (unless gi is worn, then I just hold onto their gi).

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 12:47pm

Thread title edited for clairity. Carry on.

**Lu Tze** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 1:06pm

Originally Posted by The Villain

Wasn't it developed to give school kids a way to build character or some such?

I don't think it was adopted by the Japanese school system until well into the 1900s.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 1:11pm

Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath

Thread title edited for clairity. Carry on.

I'm not exactly the second incarnation of Edgar Allen Poe, but c'mon! Your choice of a new title in the exercise of your editorial control is completely unimaginative.

At the very least, I don't think the original title deserved Hansoku-Make. It was Shido at most.

:smile:

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 3:53pm

I was of the impression it was to foul up ippons

But what do I know I'm new

**Ridder** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 5:53pm

Perhaps I'm a bit confused. The OP suggests that the uke wants to hold on after being thrown, rather than the tori maintaining a grip. If I read this correctly, then I must agree with the other posters-- don't hold on if you're on the business end of a throw. In my limited experience it can only compromise one's position for the ensuing newaza (assuming no ippon).

**MONGO** · Posted On: 4/13/2006 8:56pm

I'll use an example, say that I am getting thrown and my opponent is standing, as I fly down to the ground, I hold on with both hands and use the stability of his body to lessen the force of my impact. The goal is to avoid the Ippon and hopefully, be able to drag him into groundfighting with me possibly having superior grips.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If you let go and give the guy throwing complete control, the chance of him getting Ippon is greater.

Ippon is supposed to show power-speed-control of opponent-control of your own body.
Or so it was explained to me.