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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 3:48pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Falling: Judo vs. Wrestling

    I think everyone who practices it can agree that Judo puts a decent amount of emphasis on Ukemi - or the ability to fall without hurting yourself.

    However, if you watch a good deal of Folkstyle or Greco-Roman wrestling, it becomes apparent that their methods of falling, while having a passing resemblance to Ukemi in Judo, do not seem to follow the same conventions.

    One simple example is, in Judo, when you get hip tossed, most people will hang on to one arm of the person who performed the throw. Since I don't know Judo, I'm going to speculate this is something designed to help you keep your head up and prevent you from landing on it. However, if you watch wrestlers get hip tossed, they don't seem to want to keep the contact with the thrower and instead will start moving as if they are setting up for an immediate hip-heist or something.

    I suppose the above example could come down to a Gi or mat issue. However, I suspect there is more to the manner that each art chooses to fall. I was hoping that people with more experience could shed some more light on the fickleness of the fall fashions.
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 4:04pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought this thread was going to be about Gi's. I was going to bring up the paradox of the "No GI" brand Gi that I saw in the lastest Grappling magazine.
  3. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 4:33pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Staying tight to someone while being thrown means that they will have some measure of control over you once you both hit the ground, assuming the throw is performed in a technically competent manner. I can't speak for judoka, but for wrestlers this is a bad thing.

    The further away from my opponent I can get, while being thrown, the less likely he will land in a position of control and subsequently pin me FTW.

    I suspect Judoka are seeking to minimize the danger to their bodies by holding on/staying close to the thrower since this is generally a safer way to fall than the wrestler's method, but I could be completely wrong about this as I don't have enough Judo to experience to comment authoritatively on their methods.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  4. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 8:30pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Holding one arm in Judo shows good control of the opponent, and it often makes the throw more powerful, gives it a pivot point. The idea is to knock your opponent out or simulate it with significant power and control.

    And some of the most painful throws are the ones that cause you to go down on top of your opponent. Most of the makkikomi (wrap around) throws are where people get fucked up in Judo.

    But, wrestling drops are a totally different animal as to the goal of getting the person down.
  5. FriedxRice is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 8:33pm


     Style: ex-Judo starting bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Does everybody hold on to the lapel when they're falling? I mean the thrower is suppose to hold on to the arm after the throw and slightly pull it so the force of the fall lessens, but I don't think you (the person being thrown) are suppose to hold on. I mean, couldn't you mess up your hands/wrist by holding on all the time? Unless you're pulling guard on the other guy, but that's a no-no in judo.
  6. FriedxRice is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 8:36pm


     Style: ex-Judo starting bjj

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    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Holding one arm in Judo shows good control of the opponent, and it often makes the throw more powerful, gives it a pivot point. The idea is to knock your opponent out or simulate it with significant power and control.

    And some of the most painful throws are the ones that cause you to go down on top of your opponent. Most of the makkikomi (wrap around) throws are where people get fucked up in Judo.

    But, wrestling drops are a totally different animal as to the goal of getting the person down.
    I think Tom is talking about the person being thrown, not the person throwing. Possibly you misunderstood?

    Oh, and makkikomi's hurt, especially when you're a skinny ass bastard paired with a 170 pound fat-head.
  7. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 8:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I did misunderstand, fucking native language skill is progressively getting worse.

    The reason they hold on is probably to lessen the impact of the throw and/or be in a good position for newaza should the throw not be ippon. If you let go, the person has full control of you as you are thrown and the chances of ippon are much higher.

    on a side note, I am slowly but surely becoming illiterate in English, I would use my learning Japanese as an excuse but I suck at Japanese too. :llorar:
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 9:47am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    The reason they hold on is probably to lessen the impact of the throw and/or be in a good position for newaza should the throw not be ippon. If you let go, the person has full control of you as you are thrown and the chances of ippon are much higher.

    Hmmm ... maybe it's something about Judo rules I don't follow, but I can't see how letting go as you are being thrown increases the chances of Ippon and/or puts you in a better position for newaza. I'm just speculating here, but it seems to me that letting go would allow you to roll right through to a turtle quicker and not leave your arm extended and open for an armbar.


    That's another interesting difference: Although some Judo throws do have the thrower follow the thrown person down, a good deal of them don't. However, in wrestling, the thrower will almost always follow the opponent down with the throw.

    So, here you have Judo, practically giftwrapping the thrown person the space to get away, yet the person being thrown seems to hang on and stay close. But, in wrestling, the thrower is trying to stick close to the opponent and follow them down, yet the opponent is working to immediately make as much space as they can.

    It's stuff like this which makes me curious why there seems to be some very profound differences under the surface in regards to how to fall. I suppose some of it could be explained by the rules. But, I suspect there is a hell of a lot more to it than that.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 9:53am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    I suspect Judoka are seeking to minimize the danger to their bodies by holding on/staying close to the thrower since this is generally a safer way to fall than the wrestler's method, but I could be completely wrong about this as I don't have enough Judo to experience to comment authoritatively on their methods.

    But wouldn't this ultimately mean there are a lot more people injured practicing wrestling? I've never seen any stats which would support Judo being safer than Folkstyle/Greco-Roman wrestling - not that I've looked hard for them.
  10. Rhamma is offline

    Not over zealous, but just zealous enough. 病気の粗悪品

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 10:19am


     Style: Okinawan Karate

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    2 cents on this

    I trained in Judo as a kid like 30 years ago. I'm not so much going to get all technical about this, but what I will say as I remember why I hung on to opponents arm was to help me turn my shoulder so that I could have a "circular" fall and roll out of it.

    As a side note learning how to fall has helped me not get hurt in more than one horse wreck. People are surprised when I come off a horse at a pretty good clip and just roll out of the fall and land on my feet. I think I might have "Christopher Reeeved" a few of those falls if it had not been for early judo training.
    People often tell me that I fail to see the gravity of the situation.
    I see the gravity, and I say...

    Step right up folks and watch me defy gravity!
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