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  1. Fnord325 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 2:06pm


     Style: Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bujinkan Ranking

    It took me seven years to get to shodan in the Bujinkan, but I live in the middle of nowhere and trained via seminars and finally have a teacher in my state (WY). In our bojutsu, I worked on one kata and its variations for 2 years before seeing much of anything else. That was partly due to isolation, but I think my bojutsu is better for it. I spent a lot of time with the basic movements and now new things come much more quickly to me.

    On the whole a well trained Bujinkan 5th dan (10-12 years of training) is roughly the equivalent of a well trained 3rd dan (10-12 years of training) in an art that uses a conventional kyu/dan ranking structure. That has been my observation over the years.

    Some people do march through the ranks quickly after shodan or godan. However, most of the serious people who live in Japan don't really give two hoots what someone's rank is. They know who is reputable and who isn't.

    The introduction of a martial art to the United States is largely a death knell for that art in terms of quality. We tend to drag everything down to the lowest common denominator as a culture.

    In the end those who seek rank will get it. Those who seek skill can get that too. One is more difficult to acquire than the other. There are people in the Bujinkan who would avoid Hatsumi sensei in Japan to keep from being promoted, so not all of them are rank hungry, just the ones with their own empires.
  2. TKD Black Belt is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 2:36pm


     Style: Whoo-Hoo-Fu!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord325
    It took me seven years to get to shodan in the Bujinkan, but I live in the middle of nowhere and trained via seminars and finally have a teacher in my state (WY). In our bojutsu, I worked on one kata and its variations for 2 years before seeing much of anything else. That was partly due to isolation, but I think my bojutsu is better for it. I spent a lot of time with the basic movements and now new things come much more quickly to me.
    Emphasis added by me.

    Please note that I'm not trying to be a dick I just have a question regarding the highlighted areas. How do you become good at a style be essentially training in a vacuum? Did you cross train in other MAs? Did you compete?

    Also could you define TaeJitsu and BoJitsu as I'm not familiar with either of these styles.

    TKD

    'I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way!'
  3. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 2:45pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKD Black Belt
    Emphasis added by me.

    Also could you define TaeJitsu and BoJitsu as I'm not familiar with either of these styles.
    taijutsu is a generic Japanese term similar to jujutsu. In the Bujinkan, people use it to refer to unarmed techniques (ie, strikes throws, join locks chokes etc).
    Bojutsu is the art of the staff. usually the 6-foot staff but can also mean a stick of any length.
  4. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 7:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord325
    On the whole a well trained Bujinkan 5th dan (10-12 years of training) is roughly the equivalent of a well trained 3rd dan (10-12 years of training) in an art that uses a conventional kyu/dan ranking structure. That has been my observation over the years.

    Some people do march through the ranks quickly after shodan or godan. However, most of the serious people who live in Japan don't really give two hoots what someone's rank is. They know who is reputable and who isn't.

    The introduction of a martial art to the United States is largely a death knell for that art in terms of quality. We tend to drag everything down to the lowest common denominator as a culture.

    In the end those who seek rank will get it. Those who seek skill can get that too. One is more difficult to acquire than the other. There are people in the Bujinkan who would avoid Hatsumi sensei in Japan to keep from being promoted, so not all of them are rank hungry, just the ones with their own empires.
    The time it takes for rank is not an issue, it is the training methods and quality control as a whole that cause problems in the BJK. There are too few people who actually trying to maintain the legitimate skill level in the BJK and it is ,unfortunately, a very uphill battle for them.

    One of the problems is, that people are allowed to build their own empires and they are grossly unskilled and money motivated. It speaks poorly for everyone involved with that organization that there are such a high percentage of fruitloops.

    And, shouldn't everyone be serious? shouldn't rank mean something? shouldn't it be an accomplishment? shouldn't it be a 'quality control stamp'?
  5. Fnord325 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 10:31pm


     Style: Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Training

    Warning: Rambling Post----

    Basically, I spend a lot of time on my basics when I train alone. I also can train with my wife and occassionally somebody will join with us for a while but then they move away (so far that has been the problem). There are not a lot of people to spar and roll with in this little town. Wyoming is one big town with really long streets.

    I still box, taught kickboxing (pad/bagwork), light randori, and just try to stay in shape (lately not so successful, started a new business and had in-laws in a near fatal car crash). I also train in Muso Jikiden Ryu Iaijutsu (Yamauchi-ha), this is a more hands on and combative school of iaido than the typical stuff you see.

    The BJK does have some quality control problems. I can't deny it. I just try to make sure I train seriously (this does not always mean balls to the wall). I spend a lot of time training my technical stuff, making sure my movement is good, smooth, efficient. I don't look to BJK for the core of my fighting, but to inform it and give me some options in some situations that other martial arts may overlook. It has made me think about movement in a new way. So far, it has been strategic skill, not tactical, that has gotten me out of two potentially very nasty muggings, and that awareness came from my Bujinkan training.

    TKDblackbelt, I don't take offense. Look, I know why people look at the Bujinkan funny. I won't apologize for it, because I don't play those games and can't control it. I try very hard not to get mixed up in that sort of poop or with those people. This year I am going to try to take my training to a different level. I have a teacher in Laramie in the Bujinkan, which helps a lot in that department.

    All I can say, is that I watched Hatsumi sensei move on some DVDs and realized that he is using space and distance in a very interesting way. I want to learn that...sure some of it is "theoretical" he is playing and having a great time at 75 years of age. The trick is to see the over all thing he is presenting. For me it wasn't, oh that is a cool throw (I can throw) or a cool technique, it was the angles he uses and his sense of timing. Even against a cooperative uke in a demonstration the presence he has to do what he does is amazing, and it is NOT rehearsed or staged or done twice for that matter.

    We are looking at occassionally getting together with a guy who trains occassionally with Team Quest to explore grappling more. If someone shows me how to do something, i will come back and show it to them and figure out more about it than I was originally shown. I tear things apart technically and put them back together. Time will tell.

    There is a guy on here (Bullshido) who lives in Casper (2 hours away), and I have been meaning to see if he wants to get together and do some stuff.

    Stand up, I think I have developed decent skills (althought the leg kicks are probably rusty, it's been a year since I worked them seriously). I have never had somebody spar with me and say, "wow, you suck," or seriously gotten my ass handed to me since I was about 19, I am 36 now. Last kid I sparred in Kyokushin was in 2004. He had spent time in a full time deshi program for 2.5 years in NC (not Budo Karate House). Hard kid, no sabaki though.

    We sparred, medium (50%) contact because we didn't want tempers to flair, being new to one another. If I stood still, he could hit me. I could hit him pretty much at will. We did that for about 3 months before he joined the Army. He had competed in a regional type tournament in Japan (teacher took him over) and went the distance with the local favorite who had about 3 years more experience than he did. Good kid, tough young guy. He was a little amazed that such a nice looking guy like me could be standing in front of him and unhittable and hit so hard on the mitts. :smile:

    Ground fighting, against a BJJ person who does it day in day out, well if he gets me down, there is always prayer, but since most of those guys don't go around picking fights and neither do I, I think I am safe. I can handle most of the Jethros I am likely to deal with in my town. I am not easy to take down and I have rolled with BJJ people and skilled wrestlers, but my offensive ground game needs a lot of work. I am certainly rusty/piss poor in some of those areas.

    My movement has been judged as "very good" through the years interacting with a wide variety of people. I am not "the ****" and don't pretend to be.

    Most people do really underestimate me when they see me, and I do use that to my advantage. The boxing match I fought in last year was proof of that, but I fought like shite compared to what I am capable of. I look like everyone's nice brother (now with gray hair and receding hairline).
  6. Cough/Cool is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2006 11:06pm


     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KageKaze
    Bujinkan have some legit lineage (whether Hatsumi really the grandmaster is another story). So they means their legit, not that their good, just legit.

    I hate to be soo OT but why haven't I ever run across a Legit BJJ guy that was not good?

    IMHO, you cannot be legit without being good.
  7. Fnord325 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 12:06am


     Style: Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate to be soo OT but why haven't I ever run across a Legit BJJ guy that was not good?

    IMHO, you cannot be legit without being good.
    This is hard to argue against. There are probably a lot of people in the Bujinkan that are not "legit" by that reasoning. However, there are some who are.

    Also, having trained in a variety of ranges of combat, there are things that the Bujinkan and Koryu Japanese arts teach that BJJ does not, and some of these things can save your life. I am not talking about the D3adlY here, I am talking about mindset in certain situations that are not ring oriented.

    For example, in the muggings I mentioned earlier. Had I been in my competitive days, I may have engaged. Since in at least one case, my opponent was armed, that would have been dumb, plus I had my wife to think about (although she had already flanked the guy, which really freaked him out).

    I am not saying that these sorts of things can't be learned elsewhere or taught in BJJ, but my experience has shown me that they typically aren't. I learned them in the Bujinkan, and our Bujinkan training saved our lives.

    However, your basic argument is sound on many levels.

    To counter it, I would say that I have met a lot of bad boxers, wrestlers, kickboxers, and judoka. Does that completely sham the rest of the practitioners? However, your argument seems to be speaking towards individuals and not entire systems.
  8. TKD Black Belt is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 12:44pm


     Style: Whoo-Hoo-Fu!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord325
    TKDblackbelt, I don't take offense. Look, I know why people look at the Bujinkan funny. I won't apologize for it, because I don't play those games and can't control it. I try very hard not to get mixed up in that sort of poop or with those people. This year I am going to try to take my training to a different level. I have a teacher in Laramie in the Bujinkan, which helps a lot in that department.

    We are looking at occassionally getting together with a guy who trains occassionally with Team Quest to explore grappling more. If someone shows me how to do something, i will come back and show it to them and figure out more about it than I was originally shown. I tear things apart technically and put them back together. Time will tell.
    I can appreciate honesty. I have always said that with an unlimited amount of time on my hands and a lower level of competitive drive that I would like to sit down and study an ancient art the way it was originally conceived. Not to say this is what you're doing but I appreciate your candor.

    Anyone who is associated with TQFC is a very good training partner. I trained down there a few years back and am still digesting a lot of what I picked up. In a world of grappling/MMA where a technique is outdated in a matter of minutes it is refreshing to see a group not so much making innovations on the wheel but rather just fine tuning the basics, if you get my drift.

    If you've got a few bucks kicking around I'd suggest doing a mini-Camp with TQFC (they're very affordable and you can't beat walking into the gym and seeing enough profighters to put on a full card of fights. When you consider that most gyms have one or two very good guys this number is staggering. The wife might not like Gresham very much but you could hole her up in a hotel DT, unless she wants to train (I think they have a few women who train out of there on a competitive level.)

    Thanks for the info.

    TKD:ninja2:
  9. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 2:12pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cough/Cool
    I hate to be soo OT but why haven't I ever run across a Legit BJJ guy that was not good?

    IMHO, you cannot be legit without being good.
    Fair enough. Ususally when it come to Japanese arts legit equals you have licensing in the style you are teaching. Hatsumi himself has the licensing and it still quite good. However, his students other then his Japanese Shihan are fairly shitty. Hence they are learning a legit sytem but shittily.
  10. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2006 9:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KageKaze
    Fair enough. Ususally when it come to Japanese arts legit equals you have licensing in the style you are teaching. Hatsumi himself has the licensing and it still quite good. However, his students other then his Japanese Shihan are fairly shitty. Hence they are learning a legit sytem but shittily.
    You know, everyone says this but I remember that some of the Japanese 10 dans and above suck just as bad sometimes. Sad really, a lot of people spend time just going to Hatsumi's classes and expect that the senior guys are really that good, not so true.

    I don't think that the techniques in the last 5 years have really been that awesome, there is too much of a drift from the actual fighting application and it is justified as teaching the "feeling" or "flow".

    I thought getting punched in the face and actually sparring helped get the fucking feeling pretty good. All together, there is a lot of fantasy bullshit being taught from the top down, shows that there isn't much hope from excaping la la land.
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