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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:21pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    The second "My little friend" comes out, it's like having a whole bunch of dudes in the fray.
    Reminds of this girl...
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:24pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    It's amazing that something that seems so intuitive at this point probably took a really long time to evolve.
    This is exactly my point.

    It's also why I think anyone interested in kata should train in arts like BJJ and Judo. If Tegumi was such an integral part to kata bunkai, provide the bridge between standing grappling and striking and prone grappling and striking, I don't understand how kata bunkai nuts can think their kata will work on the ground without cross training in grappling, or that their kata is t3h anti-grapple.
  3. MercyBeat is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 5:27pm


     Style: WC, TKD, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kata documents the System. Does little for Style.

    I love learning Kata's. I have forgotten more then I can do. But someone better help me if i start to fight like a kata.

    Here is why I think it's important to learn Kata.

    1) Kata is the documentation of a System. Kata can be broken down into smaller forms. A form might only have 2 moves. A Kata has many forms strung together. You do not know a System like karate or tkd if you can't do the kata's that go along with that system.

    2) Muscle memory. I believe that Kata should have 2 speeds. Very Very slow. And with purpose and speed. Going slow will train your brain and arm to allways move your arm from position A to Position B. Using the correct lines of travel. Makes for a better show then just throwing your arms around trying to windmill in. With purpose and speed is a no brainer. If you cant do crisp moves at speed you need to work on more kata.

    3) Connection to the past. Walking in the foot steps of masters. all that zen crap.

    4) Moving meditation. This seems more important but i left it for last. Most of us that train and then do full contact know about the zone. No thinking allowed. Perforaming Kata or even Yoga will help to bring you to this zone on demand. With out thought can mean the difference between getting in a punch and freezing waiting for a attack.

    When you do kata with speed you should concider every move a attack from a new opponent.

    Problem is that Kata does not help you put it all together in a fight. Only thing that helps that is sparring people that are better then you and have different Styles. ( notice how I did not use System. I used Style ). Most good martial artists I have met have been doing it a long time and have learned more then 2 or 3 systems but have developed their own style of fighting. They only know what works with their style from actual full contact sparring.

    Get a damn good full contact sparring partner. Because Kata is not going to help you when you get jumped on the street.
    Last edited by MercyBeat; 4/11/2006 5:31pm at .
  4. Not Dead Yet is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 6:18pm


     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with what has been said above. In clarification of my "what you can do standing, you can do on the ground" comment...

    I don't believe all standing skills transfer to the ground, for I am not a slobbering idiot. Throws being an obvious example. Certain principles can be transferred however, such as "if I exert leverage between points A and B on the arm, I can lock the elbow, to cause my opponent to move/experience pain/damage the joint." You can do it standing to position the opponent (although it's bloody hard to pull off live) and you can exert the same leverage on the floor. That's a good example of what I think is meant by "groundwork" in the katas.

    Naturally your kata doesn't show you positions, transitions, strategies etc. for the floor, but it does provide you with principles for locking joints, cranking the neck and chokes and strangles. With the correct teaching and training, these principles can be expressed on the floor. Naturally you need a good teacher who knows the range, and these guys tend to be teaching grappling arts not karate. So yeah, cross train in a grappling style if you want to be able to take the kata principles on the floor.

    The fact that you will have to learn the stuff without using the kata kinda makes "kata groundwork" redundant, but that doesn't invalidate the above arguement. It's an academic point.

    There are different kinds of learning, as we know. Visual, kinesthetic and all the rest of it. Some people respond well to intellectual understanding - if you explain the physics of a good punch to them, they'll be able to transfer that knowedge into a better punch better than if you didn't explain the physics. Now, if we assume the katas have meaningful, multiple bunkai then we have to assume a certain level of intelligence on the part of their creators (or that katas are nonsense and their creators were total morons of course). It may be feasable to assume that it made sense to them to say "right, here's the mechanics of an elbow lock. This technique demonstrates the key principles of leverage, use of weight and planes of movement. Once this has been grasped, a decent fighter shold be able to adapt the technique to do armbars from more situations because now they have the mechanics". Hence, understanding a kata movement may help this kind of learner learn other ways to apply armbars with good instruction and experimentation.

    It is sometimes said that kata were designed by fighters for fighters. This brings about the point that the katas ASSUME you're a competent fighter to begin with - whether these skills come from other arts or from other elements of your training in the same style is irrelevant. Kata doesn't tell you how to punch or kick, how to move, how to cover up etc. It builds onto and from those skills, but they must be developed before kata becomes useful.

    But as said, kata is a moving syllabus, not a fight-training aid.

    Cheers,
    David
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 8:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Dead Yet
    I agree with what has been said above. In clarification of my "what you can do standing, you can do on the ground" comment...

    I don't believe all standing skills transfer to the ground, for I am not a slobbering idiot. Throws being an obvious example. Certain principles can be transferred however, such as "if I exert leverage between points A and B on the arm, I can lock the elbow, to cause my opponent to move/experience pain/damage the joint." You can do it standing to position the opponent (although it's bloody hard to pull off live) and you can exert the same leverage on the floor. That's a good example of what I think is meant by "groundwork" in the katas.

    Naturally your kata doesn't show you positions, transitions, strategies etc. for the floor, but it does provide you with principles for locking joints, cranking the neck and chokes and strangles. With the correct teaching and training, these principles can be expressed on the floor. Naturally you need a good teacher who knows the range, and these guys tend to be teaching grappling arts not karate. So yeah, cross train in a grappling style if you want to be able to take the kata principles on the floor.

    The fact that you will have to learn the stuff without using the kata kinda makes "kata groundwork" redundant, but that doesn't invalidate the above arguement. It's an academic point.

    There are different kinds of learning, as we know. Visual, kinesthetic and all the rest of it. Some people respond well to intellectual understanding - if you explain the physics of a good punch to them, they'll be able to transfer that knowedge into a better punch better than if you didn't explain the physics. Now, if we assume the katas have meaningful, multiple bunkai then we have to assume a certain level of intelligence on the part of their creators (or that katas are nonsense and their creators were total morons of course). It may be feasable to assume that it made sense to them to say "right, here's the mechanics of an elbow lock. This technique demonstrates the key principles of leverage, use of weight and planes of movement. Once this has been grasped, a decent fighter shold be able to adapt the technique to do armbars from more situations because now they have the mechanics". Hence, understanding a kata movement may help this kind of learner learn other ways to apply armbars with good instruction and experimentation.

    It is sometimes said that kata were designed by fighters for fighters. This brings about the point that the katas ASSUME you're a competent fighter to begin with - whether these skills come from other arts or from other elements of your training in the same style is irrelevant. Kata doesn't tell you how to punch or kick, how to move, how to cover up etc. It builds onto and from those skills, but they must be developed before kata becomes useful.

    But as said, kata is a moving syllabus, not a fight-training aid.

    Cheers,
    David
    Well put and I like Kata and grappling, however as far as my experience goes there's nothing in Kata that has anything to do with, or helps in the technical side of grappling.

    Understanding how to apply an arm bar from standing has nothing to do with the ground arm bar. Yes they both apply preasure on the elbow, but are so different from each other in application that thinking of one when trying to do the other will screw you up.
  6. UltimateGaijin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 10:07pm


     Style: kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    do top Kyokushin guys even bother doing kata???
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 11:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I skipped the rest of the replies to the thread to derail whatever's been said, and make my comment/question in regards to kata....

    Regardless of whether you feel it benefits an adult student training to learn how to fight/self defense in any way mentally or physically, would you agree with me in saying that it is an excellent tool that can be used to build discipline and focus in young children? I've found IMO that it's the best thing I use in getting a room full of grade schoolers to actually calm down and focus their technique and motions.
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