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  1. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 1:26pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    If we're speaking of two man kata as found in the Koryu arts, they definitely can have varied levels of resistance.
    So you could say some kata are drills, but not all drills are kata? I wouldn't concider something like a mount escape or back control drill a kata.
  2. Bry is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 1:27pm


     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was thinking more along the lines with some of the escape drills we do where you escape and go to a mount and then the other person escapes and mounts.

    But yea I mainly agree that current kata is a waste of time, but I can't help but think there was more to it at one point.

    Bry
  3. FictionPimp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 1:31pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still stand by my previous statement that kata (such as the ones in judo) were used just to keep the old people practicing after their competition years had well passed.
  4. Not Dead Yet is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 1:43pm


     Style: Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just thought I'd throw in 2c here, as my training is fairly Kata-centric.

    Never used to attach much importance to Kata - it was "grading requirements". However, when looking for someone worth their salt to grade me to 1st Dan, Peter Consterdine got me in touch with a guy called Iain Abernethy.

    In the time that's passed since I've looked at a lot of Iain's work and been impressed - as have many martial artists in the UK (of all styles and motivations). Kata is a record - a zip file - of the principle habits of the person the kata is based on, that person being a very effective fighter. Use of kata in training should be more than the "solo form", but practise of the techniques utilising those principles, firstly against a compliant partner, then with resistance. Other techniques based on those principles should be taught and trained in the same way (the idea being that if you as a fighter have certain habits you'll find many ways to use them - the kata technique serves as an "example"). Finally, you should be able to apply those principles in live, full contact, all range combat.

    The solo form is there for reference, mild exercise, bodyweight transferral practise, isolation of the core movements and for something to do when you 1. don't have a training partner and 2. no impact equipment to play with. Makes a nice cool down.

    Is it NECESSARY? Nope, of course not. Assuming your applications/bunkai are effective, then most likely other styles without kata train something similar anyway, so that's a living demonstration of the un-necessity of kata.

    Can it be USEFUL? I believe so. Co-ordination is one benefit I attribute to kata.

    It is postulated that karate is for self defence. As such, you would not be expecting a technical attacker, but rather a "street fighter". As such, your fighting needs to be simple and effective. That's one reason why I believe karate is a poor candidate for MMA competition - it simply doesn't have the sophistication of technique required to deal with a technical, highly trained attacker.

    As for the "hidden groundwork" - it's a simple assumption that what I can do standing, I can do on the ground. Not a massive leap of faith. To do it WELL on the ground, you need to train for it, which is where most karate schools claiming groundwork fall down.

    Why bother with "hidden kata techniques" at all? No reason really, unless you find it stimulating to do so.

    Hope that made sense.
    Cheers,
    David
  5. FictionPimp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 1:50pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Dead Yet
    As for the "hidden groundwork" - it's a simple assumption that what I can do standing, I can do on the ground. Not a massive leap of faith. To do it WELL on the ground, you need to train for it, which is where most karate schools claiming groundwork fall down.
    I find this to be a wrong assumption. There are many things you can do standing that dont work on the ground. On your back your strikes will not have nearly as much power as if you were standing, you wont see standing clinch or throwing down on the ground (it just wouldn't make any sense). I belive the ground requires a different strategy and a different set of skills. You can't approach a ground fight like a standing fight. Timing, speed, power, distance are all different and all have different applications on the ground. I understand you are not claiming to do karate well on the ground, but I dont think striking priciples transfer at all to the ground (with the exception of the ground and pound).

    God I need something to do at work today.
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 2:13pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never bought the "hidden groundwork" idea, myself.

    In a similar vein as Not Dead Yet (probably because we both look to Iain Abernethy), I do see skill transference, though it is certainly not direct.

    We can look to the evolution of TJJJ, Traditional Japanese Jujutsu, to modern Brazilian jujutsu as a guide post for any sort of endevour in this area.

    The majority of TJJJ does not include massive amounts of groundwork. This is something that evolved over time, to bring us to present day BJJ. Locks that were applied standing up against an armored opponent were gradually learned to be applied against a prone, unarmored opponent. It did not happen over night. It required artists who were constantly delving into their art, practicing it, and experimenting with it.

    Unfortunately, rather than take this approach, karate was, at several points in its de-evolution, dumbed down.

    Also, where practice in the Okinawan style of wrestling known as Tegumi was once common place, it has been completely separated from karate practice in the last century.

    I do not advocate saying, "A-ha, I can do this standing up, therefore I can do it on my back." This is an idiotic statement. I do advocate working with it, experimenting with it, cross-training to see how other people who specialize in grappling apply it.

    There is no secret groundfighting techniques in kata. Those who would say so have no idea what they are talking about.
  7. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:01pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    The majority of TJJJ does not include massive amounts of groundwork. This is something that evolved over time, to bring us to present day BJJ. Locks that were applied standing up against an armored opponent were gradually learned to be applied against a prone, unarmored opponent. It did not happen over night. It required artists who were constantly delving into their art, practicing it, and experimenting with it.
    It's amazing that something that seems so intuitive at this point probably took a really long time to evolve.

    The second you involve gravity and the ground, it becomes SOOOOO much easier to exert the kind of leverage needed to make jointlocks and chokes work. For some reason in my head, I've always thought of it was "the third man." If you know how to utilize the ground, it's almost like having an extra person helping out.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  8. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    It's amazing that something that seems so intuitive at this point probably took a really long time to evolve.

    The second you involve gravity and the ground, it becomes SOOOOO much easier to exert the kind of leverage needed to make jointlocks and chokes work. For some reason in my head, I've always thought of it was "the third man." If you know how to utilize the ground, it's almost like having an extra person helping out.
    I feel the same way about weapons. The second "My little friend" comes out, it's like having a whole bunch of dudes in the fray.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  9. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:12pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    I feel the same way about weapons. The second "My little friend" comes out, it's like having a whole bunch of dudes in the fray.
    Very true.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2006 4:21pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    It's amazing that something that seems so intuitive at this point probably took a really long time to evolve.

    The second you involve gravity and the ground, it becomes SOOOOO much easier to exert the kind of leverage needed to make jointlocks and chokes work. For some reason in my head, I've always thought of it was "the third man." If you know how to utilize the ground, it's almost like having an extra person helping out.
    During a discussion on striking, a Judo buddy of mine once said he considered himself a striker, not a grappler.

    He just like to strike the ground with people.
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