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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:15pm

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    The Type of Goju my style derives from is from Japanese GoJu which was brought from Okinawa to Japan by Gogen Yamaguchi.

    One of the big things he did was change sparring from the static KATA based forms to a more open concept resembling boxing.

    The traditional Okinawan Karate sparring used all the stuff in Kata's - deep stances, exagerated downward sweeping blocks, chambered punches and so forth. The old school Okinawan karateka sparred like they trained in Kata and tried to make it work. So the kata was directly related to actual sparring and fighting

    Yamaguchi recognized that better stances and methods existed and adapted the Japanese style. However he still kept the kata at the heart of GoJu as a way of exagerating and isolating muscles, techniques and breathing.

    Well done Kata is like isometric excerises. I started Pilates not to long ago and my Pilates work out looks like a Kata.

    Again Kata's not necessary but can be usefull and shouldn't be dismissed as bullshido.

    Now learning Japanes phrases for everything is BS I HATE that and wish it would **** right off. Ous!!!
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:19pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    The traditional Okinawan Karate sparring used all the stuff in Kata's - deep stances, exagerated downward sweeping blocks, chambered punches and so forth. The old school Okinawan karateka sparred like they trained in Kata and tried to make it work. So the kata was directly related to actual sparring and fighting
    Deep stances are not a traditional part of Okinawan kata. The majority of Okinawan kata featured very shallow stances, much more in line with fighting.
  3. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:23pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DerAuslander108, how did you come into this Enshin knowledge of your's. Also I've always wondered why they call that throw Ura Nage when in looks so similar in practice to Osoto Gari.

    Edit: I would think they would have used all the Judo names seeing as Ninomiya was supposedly a Judo player.
    Last edited by ojgsxr6; 4/10/2006 4:28pm at .
  4. broken fingers is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:28pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i honestly don't think its necessary to Kata in order to be a good fighter. it does however, help in testing/technique requirements. I always hated forms, hate teaching them, hate learning them, hate having to remember them.
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Deep stances are not a traditional part of Okinawan kata. The majority of Okinawan kata featured very shallow stances, much more in line with fighting.

    hmm you're right a quick search on goole explains that the deep stances came in when Karate moved to Japan.

    Anyways smarty pants, my point though was that the tradtionalists tried to fight and spar like their kata so that it used to have a very practical application to actual fighting.
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:29pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    DerAuslander108, how did you come into this Enshin knowledge of your's.
    Cross-referencing. I've seen the throw used in Okinawan bunkai, and I've seen it used in the Sabaki textbook. I use Enshin as a reference because it is a perfect example of how a technique contained in a kata is perfectly applicable in sparring, rather than the typical "I do a down block to stop a kick".


    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Also I've always wondered why they call that throw Ura Nage when in looks so similar in practice to Osto Gari.
    I don't know why it was termed that way. Perhaps it was always called Ura Nage? You're essentially throwing someone over your back, so, I can see how that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Edit: I would think they would have used all the Judo names seeing as Ninomiya was supposedly a Judo player.
    I would have thought that as well. Perhaps this points to a different source than Judo for this technique.
  7. broken fingers is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:29pm


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    pardon my lateness, dont feel like reading the whole thread, but muay thai and BJJ don't do any forms that i know of, what say you about their effectiveness?
  8. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know where Kata is good? Ten minutes at the end of a class as a warm down excercise. That's when I enjoy it the most.

    If I had to spend hour at a time doing Kata I would quit and go somewhere else
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:34pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    hmm you're right a quick search on goole explains that the deep stances came in when Karate moved to Japan.
    No problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    Anyways smarty pants, my point though was that the tradtionalists tried to fight and spar like their kata so that it used to have a very practical application to actual fighting.
    Actually, I think this is in the reverse.

    "Old school", and I say old school rather than traditional (most traditionalists only knew elementary school karate), fought pretty much like the rest of us. We have documented matches between Western boxers and old schoolers where the old schoolers won. I think any boxer worth their salt would knock the **** out of someone who chambers their punches on the hips. We have old schoolers impressing Judoka with their throwing techniques, because Tegumi trained with Kata application (not solo kata work) gave them a decent grappling system.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 4:35pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by broken fingers
    pardon my lateness, dont feel like reading the whole thread, but muay thai and BJJ don't do any forms that i know of, what say you about their effectiveness?
    I have no doubt of their effectiveness.

    What I would see, rather, is kata criticized after being fully understood in its cultural background, rather than deal with straw man arguments.
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