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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 10:11am

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have been thinking and since the title of the thread is "Is practicing and doing kata really necesary "

    I'll change my answer and say no it's not "necessary."

    It can be a usefull tool and I like doing it as part of my overall traning. But If had to give up one part of training - Kata, strength training, cardio, stretching, sparring, or grappling. Kata would be the first out the window.

    Now excuse me while I shut my office door and do Kata Sanchin for 10 minutes.
  2. konosan is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 10:13am


     Style: Japanese Jujutsu / aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugeisha
    They don't have a word for how big of an idiot you are.

    There is, you just have to keep looking!
  3. CanucKyokushin is offline

    He'll flip ya!

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 10:25am

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     Style: Not.....working

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    I have been thinking and since the title of the thread is "Is practicing and doing kata really necesary "

    I'll change my answer and say no it's not "necessary."

    It can be a usefull tool and I like doing it as part of my overall traning. But If had to give up one part of training - Kata, strength training, cardio, stretching, sparring, or grappling. Kata would be the first out the window.

    Now excuse me while I shut my office door and do Kata Sanchin for 10 minutes.
    I kind of believed that something was lost (or just ignored) when old traditional stances were brought into more modern training regimes. Maybe you can agree with me here Goju. In Okinawa, Gojuist usually train in Zenkutsu and sanchin while transporting Vases around the Dojo floor. This was an early form of weight training at a time when that sort of thing wasn't well understood.

    Today perhaps training at a gym with modern methods might be more efficient.

    However, I feel that it's perhaps time to get rid of some traditional stances and move to just keeping fighting stance for a modern Kata. Just like in the clip. Im impressed with it because that's the first Kata of the Oyama karate style. How many styles do you know that have fighting stances in their katas? Not many thats for sure.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 10:34am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You get rid of the stances, you cancel out the bunkai. You might as well do modern forms like those in Oyama karate and WTF Taekwondo.

    Again, you're misunderstanding the purpose of kata. It's not to teach you to fight like the kata. It's to record a syllabus.
  5. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 2:03pm

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     Style: Dancing the Spears

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whats the point of recording a syllabus of techniques that dont work and are not applicable? The technique combinations i've seen in kata are no good, the stances suck, the style of movement sucks, the block attack block attack style of fighting taught in kata sucks.

    There's just no point to it really.
  6. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 2:16pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate kata, I mean I really hate kata, but unfortunately it's required for belt tests in Enshin. But Enshin kata seem to be more like shadow boxing in that techniques and stances are done similar to how they would be done iin a real fight(meaning in a fighting stance and nothing is chambered) as opposed to how they are done in other styles where they use the Sanchin, Horse, or the walking stance. This is an Ashihare kata but I can't find an Enshin kata online, but it's similar to how Enshin kata is done. I still think shadow boxing is better because it's made up as you go along.

    http://www.ashihara.org.sg/movies/sonoichi.mpg
  7. CanucKyokushin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 3:36pm

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     Style: Not.....working

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    You get rid of the stances, you cancel out the bunkai. You might as well do modern forms like those in Oyama karate and WTF Taekwondo.

    Again, you're misunderstanding the purpose of kata. It's not to teach you to fight like the kata. It's to record a syllabus.
    I think we both know exactly what Bunkai means.Thats not my point.What i'm was trying to say is that maybe modern fighting style will need a modern 'syllabus' that makes sense.Since the Zenkutsu-Dachi is a very traditional stance thats found in many styles;that may or may not have been used principly to teach just ballance and strenght exercise.On that I mean that we now work-out differently today compared to say a hundred years ago.

    I don't know if I'm making any sense right now.I'm hungry actually.So BRB.
  8. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 3:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    On that I mean that we now work-out differently today compared to say a hundred years ago.
    You're right.

    People don't train nearly as hard as they should, and still expect results like they do.
    We are surrounded by warships and dont have time to talk. Please pray for us. One Somali Pirate.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 3:50pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    Whats the point of recording a syllabus of techniques that dont work and are not applicable? The technique combinations i've seen in kata are no good, the stances suck, the style of movement sucks, the block attack block attack style of fighting taught in kata sucks.

    There's just no point to it really.

    You have to understand the hows and whys of Okinawan kata development.

    I don't advocate form based training. Forms for the sake of forms is empty and useles.

    There are no secrets, there are no codes.

    The techniques I refer to are very simple things like shoulder throws, chokes, and basic locks.

    Drills, combos, bag work...all of those train technique as well, if not better than solo form practice.

    One step sparring and the majority of kata style drills are an exercise in elementary school karate, literally. They are worthless, a waste of time.

    The human race continues to fight in the same manner it has used since the dawn of time. All that's changed are various circumstances adn theories (usage or armor, difference between civil and military usage, etc). I really doubt that in Okinawa two hundred years ago that in order to fight, men drew up into horse stance and pulled both of their fists back to their hips.

    Blocks? There's no such thing as blocks. That is an elementary school level of understanding of the kata.

    The original Kanji for "block" is 受, pronounced "uke". This does not mean block. . These were techniques for receiving an opponent's motion and countering, usually with a throw or a lock.

    Here is a static example for you of your example of the "low block".

    Face your partner. With your right hand, grab the sleeve of his dobok at his right upper arm as you enter his right side. Step behind him, getting your center of gravity next to his. With your left arm, reach across to grab the left shoulder of his dobok (or possibly his hair, ear, or fish hook him). Now, let your left arm perform that low arcing motion.

    In Enshin Karate, this is known as Ura Nage, or "back throw". It's not to be confused with Judo's ura nage, a sacrifice throw.

    There is no such thing as chambering. There is however grabbing, entangling, and pulling an opponent's limbs.

    Kata in Okinawan karate developed for a reason.

    Koryu jujutsu was originally taught in two man kata, in a static, "dead" manner. The Koryu had scrolls (maki), that contained the syllabus, skills, and secrets of their individual schools.

    Kano came along and changed all of this, and in Judo, throws were taught in an alive manner, leading to the general superiority of Judo over many Koryu schools as far as throws are concerned.

    Continue the development, and we see the evolution of Brazilian jujutsu, one of the most modern and sophisticated martial arts taught today, enjoying amazing success.

    Traditional Karate kata were one taught in two man form as well, with joint locks and throws being taught in a similar manner. However, there were no scrolls or written syllabus. Rather, there was the solo form, which served as a moving syllabus for a given teaching. This required having a teacher who could show you how to perform the techniques of the kata, as traditionally Okinawan karate was passed on from one teacher to one student.

    No Judo came along for Karate. Rather, karate was "dumbed" down for elementary school students. Kata were taught as a sole means of development, rather than as a complete syllabus.

    This karate is brought to Japan, and from Japan, to Korea. This is the post popular perception of kata...that they are a collection of block-punch, or block-kick techniques.

    Overall, in today's age, I would say it is not necessary to have the kata.

    However, if you followed the parallel historical overview, I would say the contents of the kata syllabus have not been studied in enough detail to develop them. Rather, they have been dumbed down.
  10. CanucKyokushin is offline

    He'll flip ya!

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2006 3:59pm

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     Style: Not.....working

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    You're right.

    People don't train nearly as hard as they should, and still expect results like they do.
    No my point was the opposite of what you said.WHat I meant was that since today poeple who take their training seriously and strive to improve will probably go to a gym and train even more efficiently than say someone who trains exclusively on forms and basics.
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