whats the probloem with wing chun?

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 1:42am

Originally Posted by Da SHreDdA

all teh pride champions arent bjj guys, guess they arent the smart ones huh hahaha

They might not all be BJJ guys, but they all have solid grappling backgrounds.

I know you're just trolling at this point, but I can't sleep, so here you go:

Welterweight Champion: Dan Henderson. Olympic caliber wrestler.

Lightweight Champion: Takanori Gomi. (maybe catch/pro) wrestling. Just lost his last fight (it was non-title) by submission to Marcus Aurelio, a BJJ guy if there ever was one.

Middleweight Champion: Wanderlei Silva. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt.

Other players in this weight class that you've probably heard of: Ricardo Arona, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. All BJJ Black Belts.

Kazushi Sakuraba: Pro/shoot/catchwrestler.

Alistair Overeem: Abu Dhabi quality submission grappler.

Heavyweight Champion: Fedor. Amazingly talented Judoka and SAMBOist.

Some players in the division: Fedor's brother Aleksander. Judo/SAMBO.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Fabricio Werdum (cro-cop's bjj coach), etc. BJJ Black Belts.

But wait! What about Chuck Liddell? Surely he doesn't BJJ?! He must surely be the ultimate anti-grapple trump card! Well, he's an extremely talented wrestler AND A BJJ PURPLE BELT.

My point? To be good at MMA, you have to be a good grappler. That's right, you have to be able to grapple, even if fighting on the ground isn't your style.

You don't want to do BJJ because you don't like how some people that do it are asses on the internet? Have you ever gone to a BJJ school? All the schools I've been to have been filled with incredibly nice, helpful guys.

**GoldenJonas** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 9:45am

Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean

They might not all be BJJ guys, but they all have solid grappling backgrounds.

I know you're just trolling at this point, but I can't sleep, so here you go:

Welterweight Champion: Dan Henderson. Olympic caliber wrestler.

Lightweight Champion: Takanori Gomi. (maybe catch/pro) wrestling. Just lost his last fight (it was non-title) by submission to Marcus Aurelio, a BJJ guy if there ever was one.

Middleweight Champion: Wanderlei Silva. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt.

Other players in this weight class that you've probably heard of: Ricardo Arona, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. All BJJ Black Belts.

Kazushi Sakuraba: Pro/shoot/catchwrestler.

Alistair Overeem: Abu Dhabi quality submission grappler.

Heavyweight Champion: Fedor. Amazingly talented Judoka and SAMBOist.

Some players in the division: Fedor's brother Aleksander. Judo/SAMBO.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Fabricio Werdum (cro-cop's bjj coach), etc. BJJ Black Belts.

But wait! What about Chuck Liddell? Surely he doesn't BJJ?! He must surely be the ultimate anti-grapple trump card! Well, he's an extremely talented wrestler AND A BJJ PURPLE BELT.

My point? To be good at MMA, you have to be a good grappler. That's right, you have to be able to grapple, even if fighting on the ground isn't your style.

You don't want to do BJJ because you don't like how some people that do it are asses on the internet? Have you ever gone to a BJJ school? All the schools I've been to have been filled with incredibly nice, helpful guys.

Marcus Aurelio, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Kazushi Sakuraba.....some of the best grapplers the world has ever seen....notice no Gracie in the mix so there is no nuttriding going on here. But as the Bean pointed out all have some/a lot BJJ.

"But what about Sakuraba...the Gracie hunter is a pro wrestler"

WRONG..Sakuraba trained with Silva's camp last summer because he wanted to roll with the best......BJJ.

Now that does not mean BJJ is "th3 b3st grappling around"....The other fighters listed by Bean are proof. You can also add, IMO, Carlos Newton, Frank Shamrock, Gokor, and Jeremy Horn to that list (there are others but the names escape me right now like some of the fighters coming out of Bas's Beverly Hills JJ Club like the guy who beat Royler, Genki Sudo)

Bottom line whether its BJJ, SAMBO, Jujitsu, Submission Fighting, some Judo, greco roman, NCAA Wrestling, or fucking ninjitsu it all matters how and with who you train BUT to be a successful, well rounded fighter now-a-days, you MUST have a solid grappling base...........wha,wha, wha, wha, what about Matt Hughes and the Miletich camp their just a bunch of hard core strikers........WRONG, they relied on Jeremey Horn's solid ground work (PAT MILETICH also holds a black belt in Jiu-jitsu not BJJ) to train and assist their fighters in that aspect - (not sure if Horn still rolls with the Miletich camp now though), and Hughes was a solid collegeate wrestler.

If you want to see some of the best grappling, BJJ and others, watch the ADCC best of DVD’s.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 11:07am

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom7

look, i already mentioned my school a couple of times, and i didn't get a bite. only guy who responded here was cool but lives too far away. again, its the Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy in Mount Laurel, NJ. the Sifu is Master Keith Mazza. Grandmaster Cheung is around town for a few weeks. here's a number: (856)231-0352. call and politely ask if you can try out your fighting with someone or test out Traditional Wing Chun. Bullshido that or don't talk about how useless WC is ever again.

No one is paying attention to you because you obviously don't know how teh d34d7y intardweb challenge works. The challenger, in this case you, is under the onus to travel to the challengee, which is all of Bullshido apparently. So by established rules, your current challenge requires you to seek us all out and challenge us. Sounds retarded, right?

Instead of attempting to wave your e-cock around, why don't you just come to a throwdown? That's what they are for, to test yourself and your art in a safe and ego-free environment. Bullshido does not have to prove anything to you. If you want to prove something to us, show up and rep at a throwdown, or continue the e-penis thumping and we will continue to ignore you.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 11:15am

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom7

later on, he decided to grapple. he's not good at it, but either am i. but i knew enough to dominate, even though he's much bigger than i am. and i made him tap out with a nice grab and squeeze to the throat, something i believe is illegal in all these fight tournaments people here boast of.

I'm not impressed by a wing chun guy tapping another with a throat grab. If you two combined your total grappling skill it wouldn't sum to a three-class BJJ white belt.

**Locu5** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 11:16am

No, seriously, please come to a Throwdown. There are a lot of people who would like to see good _ing _ung in a live setting. How about the Mega in Kansas City at the end of May? It will be fun.

**TheSparrow** · Posted On: 4/10/2006 1:32pm

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom7

there is nothing wrong with Wing Chun, but if the WC school isn't teaching good footwork(in general, that would be any WC school that isn't Traditional), there will be a huge limitation, and only very highly skilled WC guys, who regularly spar, will be able to deal with an aggressive attacker. the problem with MOST WC is that the practictioners don't CONDITION, don't regularly SPAR, and rely too much on Chi Sao without learning how to use it in a more realistic situation. and most WC guys stay right in the middle and try to deflect an attack using touch-sensitivity skills from Chi Sao, but cannot do it against real aggression/high pressure attacks.

i do Traditional Wing Chun, and i proved this point before fighting modified WC guys, and i proved it yesterday against a WC teacher in NJ. the school doesn't spar much, and he felt that he could wait to engage/bridge and then rely on chi sao to fight. i told him that in theory that sounds great but it needs to be worked a lot. if he sparred more he would be able to see other missing elements that need attention. again, that's why ultimately, its not the art, its how its trained. WC has awesome scientific fighting principles, but they need to be worked.

and so we sparred and guess what? he wasn't able to use any chi sao. we used no protective gear and used medium contact, and i even used kicks, even towards the face just to see him close the gap(high kicks? not bad for a WC guy, right?) later on, he decided to grapple. he's not good at it, but either am i. but i knew enough to dominate, even though he's much bigger than i am. and i made him tap out with a nice grab and squeeze to the throat, something i believe is illegal in all these fight tournaments people here boast of.

Oh. NO. Say it isn't so. Someone who actually believes the bullshit about Traditional/Modified Wing Chun.

http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg

Eat.......eat......

Yeah, you'll say one of the following:

1) William was wearing Kung Fu slippers!
2) Emin was naughty, very very naughty!
3) William decided not to hurt Emin!
4) The video is edited!

Number 1 and 4 are most likely true.
Number 3 is bullshit.
Number 2 is bullshit. Who cares if it was dishonourable.

William got taken to the ground and demonstrated precisely zero ground skills, with his legs flapping about like a dead fish in standard spazzing out mode. Whatever went before this, the fact remains that Wing Chun's "Grandmaster" was unable to defend himself in any way once the fight went to ground. Very disappointing indeed.