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  1. Kensai is offline

    Registered Member

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    Nov 2002
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    467

    Posted On:
    5/09/2003 10:51am


     Style: Aikido and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have not experienced that wishy washyness yet, and dont really hope to either. I guess thats the nice thing about being in an idependent federation. I have heard som bad stuff about the Aikikai and Ki Society in general, hence why the Ki Federation broke away.
      #11
  2. panda is offline

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    May 2003
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    244

    Posted On:
    5/09/2003 11:46pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    so you should probably do tomiki aikido which focuses in active freestyle competition like judo, but then again, tokyo police do train in yoshinkan style still, but id say tomiki is still better suited for street combat
      #12
  3. Kail is offline

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    Feb 2003
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    cst
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    295

    Posted On:
    5/10/2003 2:37am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bit intoxicated and tired as hell, but here goes.

    The Uki/Tori relationship during training should be a very finely balanced thing. The Uki is putting their body on the line so the Tori can learn, the Tori is responsible for not exicuting the technique in a way that puts the danger outside of the Uki's skill. Basically, if I'm being thrown, its my job not to get hurt. If I'm throwing, its my job to be ready, and able, to modify technique on the fly to keep from unduely hurting my Uki, or save his bacon if he screws up his Ukemi.

    In a perfect world the benefits are that the Tori gets a really good handle his techniques, and modify them, fluidly, to suit his immeadiate needs. The Uki gets to stay in good enough health to train another day, and learns how to survive screwing up in a defense situation and minimizing the damage he takes. About the only way to get anything near this level of harmoy is to pair highly skilled individuals together, or very lopsided pairs. The high end matched pairs posses the skills needed to compliment each other and grow in ability. The mis-matched pairs has one of the two that is skilled enough as both Tori and Uki to survive and minimize the screw ups of the less skilled person. And along the way, for the sake of their own training, pass on their skills so that their partner can help them more effectively train. That again, being in my perfect world.
      #13
  4. fourteenfists is offline

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Eastern
    Posts
    4

    Posted On:
    5/10/2003 2:57am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "If I'm throwing, its my job to be ready, and able, to modify technique on the fly to keep from unduely hurting my Uki, or save his bacon if he screws up his Ukemi."

    By inversing that statement, it stands to reason that, if needed, one with sufficient experience as Tori can choose to adjust a throw so as to foil attempts at ukemi.

    Use your powers for evil, so to speak.
      #14
  5. Vapour is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jan 2003
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    552

    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 12:31am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another thing I should add is role of following in aikido kata practice. In kata practice uke is not just helping tori to practice technique or making practice safer.

    Advance practioner of aikido should be able to counter any aikido technique by following tori's aikido technique. Uke by cooperating with tori is not just facilitating execution of technique by tori. He is at the same time, learning to counter/defeat such technique.

    When you are being tori, you learn "technique". When you are uke, you are learning aikido.

    Whole idea of resisting technique, though occasionally useful in correcting sloppy technique, goes against core of what aikido is all about.
      #15
  6. Kensai is offline

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    Nov 2002
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 8:34am


     Style: Aikido and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well said Vapour, I completely agree.
      #16
  7. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    angola, ny
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    2,047

    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 5:23pm


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    uke-shomen uchi
    tori-ude osae
    uke-ukemi roll
    tori-in mid flight,executes kote gaeshi to effect counter torque to uke's ukemi. perhaps this would possibly 'land' as shiho nage.

    what do you think would happen?




    peace.

    INDONESIAN GUNG-FU
      #17
  8. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Bolton, Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    2,611

    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 5:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    immense pain.
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
      #18
  9. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    angola, ny
    Posts
    2,047

    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 6:35pm


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think your arm would come out the socket.

    just a consideration.


    peace.

    INDONESIAN GUNG-FU
      #19
  10. Vapour is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    552

    Posted On:
    5/11/2003 9:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I should add one more. In Yoshinkan aikido known for its hardcore approach of aikido, it is uke's responsibility to make tori's technique safe for himself/herself. For example, in Yoshinkan's shihonage, they strech uke's arm out straight instead of bending it. If you bend arm, uke can safely fall into backward roll. In Yoshinkan's shihonage, shoulder joint are locked so you can't go down. Instead, uke have to do backward flip in the air to avoid injury. Needless to say there are high rate of injury in Yoshinkan aikido.

    I'm not expert on Yoshinka aikido but I think resistance as well as following is considered as valid response. But think carefully. Aikido lock are applied by affecting body alignment of uke, so only way to resist correctly applied techniqu is to put your body in proper body alignment rather than using brute force.

    If you resist correctly applied lock with brute force, the force applied to lock is uke's force PLUS tori's force.. On the other hand, if you follow the lock to counter/escape such technique, the force of lock is tori's force MINUS uke's force.

    In aikido, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

    .

    Edited by - vapour on May 11 2003 21:58:47
      #20
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