I never thought I'd be back here, but my e-mail keeps reminding me that this thread has risen from the grave. I will soon disable that option, so that we can both happily forget about each other, and hopefully until the end of time. But since this 3 month old post is back from the dead, and I've had a lot of time to think about the idea since then, I'll put in a final thought before I bid you all farewell.
The way I presented my argument (in an attempt to kick-start a discussion about technique and the quality of stand-up work in the UFC, both striking and throwing) failed, because my initial post is based on completely faulty logic. Rules, by in large, are not holding back the UFC's stand-up game.
What is holding back the UFC's stand-up game? I don't know and I'm sure the majority of you here will chew me out just for thinking such a thing in the first place. I've found this forum not to be the greatest place for open discussion, especially if you're trying to challenge it's collective mindset in any way. Suffice to say, I don't believe that Chuck Liddell, or any of the other top stand-up men in MMA (and yes I actively watch Pride/UFC and Boxing) could hang with someone like Roy Jones Jr. or any other boxer of his caliber in their prime, rules or no rules. And I also don't believe these guys would have an easy time taking a class boxer to the ground for the simple reason that getting in close wouldn't be as easy as I'm sure most of you would like to believe. Clinching with the boxer wouldn't be likely if one couldn't box well enough to create that situation in the first place. And shooting in for the take-down would leave a ground man quite vulnerable to a well delivered strike.
Chuck vs Rampage part 1&2
Liddell (or Rampage who outboxed him for that matter) simply would not be able to hit either man in the following clip. Because these guys have something that Chuck and Rampage do not...
...they know how to get out of the way. (watch it from 0:55 seconds onwards if your feeling lazy, they dodge strikes with lightning reflexes where as the latter two fighters pretty much just stand there and take the beating like two warriors of steel)
I don't believe my wish to see a class boxer (who is anything but a second rate stepping stone to the sport of pro-boxing) will ever be fufilled, due to the fact that UFC/Pride/Whatever aren't likely to pay off the nessicary salary to command such a fighter to switch sports .
Those were my feelings when I originally tried to kick start a conversation here, albeit my approach was flawed and poorly executed. Those are still my feelings today. I'm sure most of you don't agree with me for your own, well thought out reasons and experience. If we were in a more laid back environment, I'd love stick around for what I believe would make a great discussion and debate on the continually evolving sport of MMA, but I simply don't think that's possible here. So with that, I leave you and wish you all the best.
See the Akiyama-Botha fight. Frans Botha lasted on his feet for about seven seconds before the takedown. While admittedly no longer in his prime for that fight, he was for a while one of the best boxers in the world, and had fights against both Tyson and Lewis.
Originally Posted by Jettatore
He also had 28 kilos of weight on his opponent.
I had the video file floating around at one point, but deleted it. You may need to hunt round online to find it.
MMA =/= kickboxing =/= boxing.
The prohibition of certain techniques (takedowns, kicks) is 1 reason that the striking in MMA looks different from boxing, or even kickboxing to some extent.
While I agree with you that the UFC's strikers tend to sometimes look like sloppy boxers and kickboxers, to a certain extent I believe that is a product of the rules.
Also, regarding boxers vs. mma-ists:
If this guy couldn't stop the takedown, what makes you think that other athletes that don't train with grapplers can avoid the takedown?
As far as not being able to close the distance, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that MMA fighters that want to grapple expect to be hit while closing the distance. I think that comes with the territory of grappling in MMA - Plenty of guys have been hit (even R0cK3D!1) on the way in, but as long as they don't get KTFO with by the strike, they'll generally end up in a dominant position.
Dominant position > 1 non-KO strike. I think grappling MMA-ists know this.
Ali vs Inoki. Look for pics and descriptions. Apparently Ali's leg was hurt pretty bad. Most of the kicks to the lower leg were not blocked.
Originally Posted by Sophist
Considering your enjoyment of Robert E. Howard, I'm suprised you didn't quote him regarding this. Something about barbarians being more polite than civilized folk, because they could do such without getting their skulls split, as a general thing.
Originally Posted by El Macho
Originally Posted by Fearless Ukemi
Apparently it depends on their facing, if the opponent falls face down it's illegal.
Apparently if there is a large weight discrepency the lighter fighter can also chose to disallow those techniques.
'Falls face down' as in on their face. If they're on their hands and knees (four points position) its legal, unless one fighter is much lighter and has chosen so. It used to always be illegal however (see Kerr v Vovchanchyn).
Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
Stomps and soccer kicks to a guy not on all fours are always legal, apart from if there's a 40-pound weight discrepancy and they're in the Open Weight GP.
Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 7/12/2006 1:20pm at .
Just a random thought: when I wouldn't want to face anybody in a given organization in a street fight, I find it hard to think of that organization as Bullshido. I mean, it's not like these guys pretend to be practitioners of an ancient art-- they claim to be fighters, real fighters. Since getting elbowed in the face doesn't magically lose power outside of an octagon, I'm going to assume these guys are just as capable when it comes to hurting people outside of the ring.
Yes I was refering to the rabbit punch to the back of the neck when someone spears, or double legs you to the ground. A good rabbit punch might not stop the groundfighters from taking you down, but it'll sure give them something to think about. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've heard that the back of the neck is a major weak spot/pressure point, and to get hit there makes your whole body go numb.