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  1. Darren San is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:14am


     Style: Isshin-ryu Karate-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamma
    I will weigh in on the original question, but I admit I have not read the 10 pages of previous posts.

    Now when we say "karate" we are talking about what started in Okinawa, and went to Japan and the USA. I am not going to go into all the other MA other than in general. And like "Slick Willy" would say "It depends on what your definition of is is."

    So here I go.

    Modern karate / MA. Is about either sport or it is more or less recreational. It is about point fighting or sparring full contact. I am not saying sport fighters can't fight in real fights. I am just saying that fighting in a game with rules and real fighting are not the same thing. The recreational "Martial Larpist" just do kata, break boards and put on "demonstrations". I suppose that they really aren't hurting anything, but they are deluding themselves if they think what they do has anything to do with real fighting, and they are damaging the image of the MAs.

    Traditional karate / MA. This is where it starts to get blurry. People here practice "The Way" of karate. Historically it comes after the "Menji" restoration act of 1868 in Japan. It was an attempt the save the traditions after the bushi warrior class was outlawed in Japan. It tended to focus on the moral and physical aspects of MA at least publicly. Some traditional MA do compete in tournaments, but it is not usually their main focus. Traditional martial artist usually are very aware of titles, belts and formalities. Lots of drills and "kihon" training. Lots of bowing and sitting "seizan". Training this way doesn't mean you can fight, but it doesn't mean you can't either.

    Classical karate / MA. Is actually very rare, but what most people who do traditional MA would like to think they are doing. Classical karate has very few of the formalities. Belts don't mean ****, titles don't mean ****. What do you know? What can you do? Sparring is done, but not for sport's sake. The view of classical karate is "it's all karate", meaning if it works and if it happens in a real fight then they work on it. It is the original form of what you might call "Mixed Martial Arts". It is what was done before all these divisions were made like, in this art we grapple, in this one we kick, in this one we do joint locks. It is everything together. It is what was handed down in families as a family fighting art. It was "no fucking around" fighting. It had formal drills which became kata. Angles and techniques were practiced in these drills, but they were not an end unto themselves and they were simply a way to transmit information from one generation to the next. Do these techniques work? Of course they do human bodies have not changed in hundreds of thousands of years. These men spent lifetimes studying this stuff. Angles, body mechanics, and yes vital points i.e. where to hit people.

    I find it amusing that I read some snott nosed kid in this forum who studied "traditional MA" with "Master Bob" down at the YMCA for two years and didn't learn to fight say "traditional MA sucks!" Two years? Five years? Take a lot longer than that to even begin to REALLY get this stuff. But we live in a microwave society and people expect fast results.

    I will get off the soapbox now and although the tone of the last part of this may sound like I am putting you modern MA down it is not my intention. I find much of what I read on here very amusing, and I am confident in how I train and not concerned with what other people think of it.
    I couldn't have said it better. Thank you Rhamma. Perhaps I have been using the wrong treminology all along and if this has caused confusion, then I apologise...

    To me the term "Traditional Karate" is what Rhamma is describing as "Classical Karate." That is what Sensei Sherman Harrill practiced and taught. Perhaps it is why I can count on two hands the number of "real" students he had. His dojo in Carson, Iowa was rarely a crowded place.

    Many like to hang around him, go to his seminars, and be associated with him... few actually became his students and began to train like him. There is absolutely no comparison between the Isshin-ryu of Allen Wheeler or Harold Long, and the Isshin-ryu of Sherman Harrill. They are two very different worlds.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:16am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren San
    I couldn't have said it better. Thank you Rhamma. Perhaps I have been using the wrong treminology all along and if this has caused confusion, then I apologise...

    To me the term "Traditional Karate" is what Rhamma is describing as "Classical Karate." That is what Sensei Sherman Harrill practiced and taught. Perhaps it is why I can count on two hands the number of "real" students he had. His dojo in Carson, Iowa was rarely a crowded place.

    Many like to hang around him, go to his seminars, and be associated with him... few actually became his students and began to train like him. There is absolutely no comparison between the Isshin-ryu of Allen Wheeler or Harold Long, and the Isshin-ryu of Sherman Harrill. They are two very different worlds.
    Using makiwara does not make it traditional. There are old school Okinawan teachers who have criticized the makiwara.
  3. Darren San is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:19am


     Style: Isshin-ryu Karate-do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rhamma ...

    You sound like you have kicked around a bit and done some serious training. It is a pleasure to meet you.
  4. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:21am

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren San
    No, actually, a good friend calls me that all the time. He spent quite a bit of time in Japan. It is sort of a 'lite" friendly term of greeting he uses.
    I profess 0 knowledge about Japanese grammar. Did your friend have legit command of Japanes or was he a bad Japanophile?
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:21am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rhamma, bro, been meaning to ask you what your lineage is?
  6. Darren San is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:24am


     Style: Isshin-ryu Karate-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Using makiwara does not make it traditional. There are old school Okinawan teachers who have criticized the makiwara.
    Oh for Pete's sake ..... get over it.

    Miyagi, Kyan, Motobu, Itosu, Nagamine, Chibana, Uechi, Shimabuku, Oyata, I think even even Funakoshi, trained on the Makiwara. If you can find a few that didn't ... so what
  7. Darren San is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:28am


     Style: Isshin-ryu Karate-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    I profess 0 knowledge about Japanese grammar. Did your friend have legit command of Japanes or was he a bad Japanophile?
    You are kidding right?

    Seriously,

    If you really must know, his daughter is fluent in Japanese and taught English in Japan for two years at a Japanese primary school. I believe she now teaches Japanese to English speaking Americans at a private school near Dalton, Georgia.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:31am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren San
    Oh for Pete's sake ..... get over it.

    Miyagi, Kyan, Motobu, Itosu, Nagamine, Chibana, Uechi, Shimabuku, Oyata, I think even even Funakoshi, trained on the Makiwara. If you can find a few that didn't ... so what
    You're misunderstanding.

    You said your original point had been misunderstood, that perhaps you didn't word it as clearly as Rhamma had. By stressing the makiwara thing, you drew people's attention to it, when maybe that's not the point. Maybe talking about hojo undo or tanrenho overall would have been better.
  9. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:32am

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren San
    You are kidding right?

    Seriously,

    If you really must know, his daughter is fluent in Japanese and taught English in Japan for two years at a Japanese primary school. I believe she now teaches Japanese to English speaking Americans at a private school near Dalton, Georgia.
    No, I am not kidding.
    See, I still have no idea what your friend's background is. Is he a former Japanese national? Is he an American who worked in Japan? Your mentioning his daughter is fluent in Japanese also says nothing.

    Neither of your two posts on this give me the information to judge his ability to use the enclitic -san.
  10. Rhamma is offline

    Not over zealous, but just zealous enough. 病気の粗悪品

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2006 11:36am


     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    *Cough*Korea*cough*
    Yes, yes my little bald Korean art studying friend it went to Korea too.
    People often tell me that I fail to see the gravity of the situation.
    I see the gravity, and I say...

    Step right up folks and watch me defy gravity!
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