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  1. Deer-boxer is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 4:21pm


     Style: wing chun, muay thai, KB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Remington 870 with a 14" barrell. Buckshot shells work tremendously well in close quarters.
    Seriously, The 870 is the classic definition of shotgun,

    a trained monkey can fire one, they aren't that unwieldly (is that a word?)

    and 00 buck makes big fucking holes in things.

    Some of y'all might take a look at this site.

    Interesting stuff regarding real world penetration and different calibres.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

    Just info for you.
  2. Phoenix is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 7:55pm

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     Style: JKD Concepts, Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deer-boxer
    Seriously, The 870 is the classic definition of shotgun,

    a trained monkey can fire one, they aren't that unwieldly (is that a word?)

    and 00 buck makes big fucking holes in things.

    Some of y'all might take a look at this site.

    Interesting stuff regarding real world penetration and different calibres.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

    Just info for you.
    That's the point.

    For home defense, you don't want to **** around with something complex. You want something that's simple and will do the job.
    "Onward we stagger, and if the tanks come, may God help the tanks." - Col. William O. Darby
  3. Phoenix is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 8:02pm

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     Style: JKD Concepts, Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Archr5
    i'm just a schlub who reads too many gun rags and posts way too much in gun forums, but.

    any length barrel is passable for home defense, i have a 26" 870 loaded up with 10 shells of 00buck (9 in the tube and one in the chamber) at home and it would be my gun of choice over any handgun or rifle in a home defense situation.

    Handguns and Rifles involve WAY too much over penetration and liability. Hit up http://www.theboxotruth.com/ for damn near anything you can think of. most handgun rounds penetrate 12 layers of sheetrock while 00buck only goes through 8

    Clearly 00 buckshot isn't exactly a non-penetrator either because in order to penetrate a bad guy the round HAS to penetrate well (12-13 inches is recommended depth in ballistic gel)

    Handguns are harder to aim and make good hits under stress, rifles are eaiser to aim but tend to shoot through the target

    even a long shotgun is capable in tight quarters... you just have to train in your home and know how to move. (hold the barrel down towards the floor to eliminate the length, if the attacker grabs your barrel while you're raising it, a discharge into whichever part of his body you happen to be covering when he grabs it should work wonders)

    you should be doing this with ANY home defense weapon though.
    Firstly, I find a shorter barell better for indoors/close quarters work because a shorter barrell affords a wider shot spread.

    Secondly, regardless of how many slabs of concrete 00 buckshot will go through, I can guarantee you that it will rip open any home invader schmuck, who's stupid enough to get in the line of fire, open like a christmas turkey - which is exactly the point.

    you should also not be loading a shotgun with any kind of loads that "won't killem, but it'll hurt like hell!" because if you're discharging a firearm at someone you better be prepared to kill them. an unlucky shot with a BB gun can kill a human, so don't rely on "non lethal" loads.
    Right you are. If it's ever gotten to the point where you need to use a firearm, it'll be because all less than lethal force alternatives have been exhausted, or they're inapplicable.
    "Onward we stagger, and if the tanks come, may God help the tanks." - Col. William O. Darby
  4. Cat Nap is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 1:56pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jeet Kune Do/Wing Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any one of my eight Berettas....
  5. Archr5 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 3:00pm


     Style: untrained idiot

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Firstly, I find a shorter barell better for indoors/close quarters work because a shorter barrell affords a wider shot spread.
    At the ranges found in the typical home defense scenario I'd bet most criminals are going to be found with a shot cup embedded in them in addition to all the shot..

    I see what you're saying about the wider shot spread, but because of the new shot cups that most manufacturers are making and putting in their shells, the difference between a cylinder choke specialized for defense shotgun, and a modified choke 26" is going to be inches (maybe a 6 or 7" grouping with a on the pellets at 10 yards instead of ... 8" or 10" with the 14" not really a huge difference)

    my 26" only spreads 9 pellet 00 buck across 10" at 50 yards... so i'm thinking center mass with ANY barrel length is going to put someone down, and barrel length becomes more of a convenince in movement and handling (at the sacrifice of ammunition capacity) than any concerns for shot pattern.

    then again i've Never shot a 14" shotgun so i couldn't tell you what the spread is like on that at 10 yards or so.
  6. Honor is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 5:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Gnujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Archr5
    i'm just a schlub who reads too many gun rags and posts way too much in gun forums, but.

    any length barrel is passable for home defense, i have a 26" 870 loaded up with 10 shells of 00buck (9 in the tube and one in the chamber) at home and it would be my gun of choice over any handgun or rifle in a home defense situation.

    Handguns and Rifles involve WAY too much over penetration and liability. Hit up http://www.theboxotruth.com/ for damn near anything you can think of. most handgun rounds penetrate 12 layers of sheetrock while 00buck only goes through 8

    Clearly 00 buckshot isn't exactly a non-penetrator either because in order to penetrate a bad guy the round HAS to penetrate well (12-13 inches is recommended depth in ballistic gel)

    Handguns are harder to aim and make good hits under stress, rifles are eaiser to aim but tend to shoot through the target

    even a long shotgun is capable in tight quarters... you just have to train in your home and know how to move. (hold the barrel down towards the floor to eliminate the length, if the attacker grabs your barrel while you're raising it, a discharge into whichever part of his body you happen to be covering when he grabs it should work wonders)

    you should be doing this with ANY home defense weapon though.

    you should also not be loading a shotgun with any kind of loads that "won't killem, but it'll hurt like hell!" because if you're discharging a firearm at someone you better be prepared to kill them. an unlucky shot with a BB gun can kill a human, so don't rely on "non lethal" loads.
    The issue of overpentration is way overhyped. Massad Ayoob has never heard of a case where a firearm shot in the home overpenetrated walls and killed an innocent person. Home shootings rarely ever happen so it is very unlikely for a bullet to overpentrate and kill, though I would avoid FMJ rounds if you live in an apartment complex. He's also never come across a case where a police officer's bullet overpenetrated a bad guy and killed a bystander. Nobody stands behind a bad guy when there is a shootout and if there are innocent people behind him, the cops are not going to shoot.
    Legendary Street Fighter
  7. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 12:02am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That doesn't surprise me at all. The overpenetration factor becomes a concern in urban warfare scenarios where high powered rifles are being used, which can and do overpenetrate and wound. Thank you for the disillusionment.
  8. Antifa is offline
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    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 8:46am

    supporting member
     Style: Starting Over... Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    I think shotguns are overrated for home defense. Although they are extremely powerfull, they are also unweildy. Narrow hallways, doorways, and other domestic obstacles may catch a barrell, sling, or stock at an unfortunate moment. (For God's sake take the sling or carrrying strap off any weapon used for home defense!) The kick from a shotgun, especially a small one suited for home defense can be massive, and getting off a second shot might prove difficult. With the sheer power of a shotgun, overpenetration is a concern even with birdshot at point-blank, domestic defense range.


    Your a much better shooter than I, but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. 12-guage is the way forward for most folks in a home defense situation.

    That being said, like any other weapon (your fist, your foot, your brain) you have to train it to use it. I suggest this http://www.abcf.net/tdc/videos.htm (shameless plug for my comrades stuff).


    That having all been said... I use an SKS around the house. But we are pistol shopping now.

    Seems dumb, but I am actually likely to be subject to a home invasion. That home invasion WILL include assult rifles. I need that extra something. And When I pcik the sks up I know it will fire

    Solid,
    Antifa
  9. Don Gwinn is offline
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    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 9:39am

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Somewhere on THR there's a poster somebody made from a cell phone photo posted on the net. It shows two guys in a beater on the highway with their hands waaay up, with a cop behind them with his pistol out and trained on the car.

    The photo was taken from in front of the suspects' car, and you can see that the officer's pistol is pointing straight at the camera. :listen:

    Good thinking!
    *********************************************
  10. Archr5 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2006 11:49am


     Style: untrained idiot

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Honor
    The issue of overpentration is way overhyped. Massad Ayoob has never heard of a case where a firearm shot in the home overpenetrated walls and killed an innocent person. Home shootings rarely ever happen so it is very unlikely for a bullet to overpentrate and kill, though I would avoid FMJ rounds if you live in an apartment complex. He's also never come across a case where a police officer's bullet overpenetrated a bad guy and killed a bystander. Nobody stands behind a bad guy when there is a shootout and if there are innocent people behind him, the cops are not going to shoot.
    I'm reading an article by Ayoob right now about how hardball ammo has overpenetrated and wounded a police officer or civillian... (Combat Handguns, June 2005, "Bad Advice Beware") I really wish there was a way for him to cite the things he talks about.

    Overpenetration is always an issue with ball ammo and since hollowpoints only expand in targets that contain fluid tissue.. (the tips expand by way of Hydraulics, not impact) you're essentially shooting hardball if the bullet hits a wall and not a person/animal.

    Being responsible gun owners, it's Our job to make sure we don't endanger others unneccesarily in the process of protecting ourselves. Overpenetration is "over hyped" because it's incredibly serious... and it's our legal and civil responsibility as gun owners to limit the collateral damage involved in home/self defense.

    IMHO the Shotgun has the best combination of reliability, ease of putting rounds on target, One shot stop capability, and controlled penetration. Shotguns are simply a better choice for home defense than handguns are, and both of those are vastly superior to Rifles.
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