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  1. Greese is offline
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    Motorboatin SOB

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 10:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Best Gun for Home Defense

    What do you guys think the best gun for home defense is? I hear shotgun pretty consistantly, are there any other answers?
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  2. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 10:56pm

    supporting memberhall of fame
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thinkiní pump shotgun in 12 gauge. Great close in firepower and the sound of racking the slide will make most people run away, and if they run away, you do not have to clean the carpet. Aside from a shotgun, I like a good 45cal pistol with some sort of light.

    In my uneducated opinion, I think that people should op for a high capacity weapon with a large caliber and low muzzle velocity to prevent over penetration.
  3. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:31pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think shotguns are overrated for home defense. Although they are extremely powerfull, they are also unweildy. Narrow hallways, doorways, and other domestic obstacles may catch a barrell, sling, or stock at an unfortunate moment. (For God's sake take the sling or carrrying strap off any weapon used for home defense!) The kick from a shotgun, especially a small one suited for home defense can be massive, and getting off a second shot might prove difficult. With the sheer power of a shotgun, overpenetration is a concern even with birdshot at point-blank, domestic defense range.

    My suggestion would be a .357 or better (higher muzzle velocity and more foot-pounds of force,) pistol with a high capacity magazine. Ideally, it should be loaded with "safety slugs" aka frangible rounds. These shatter on impact and have very little penetration on hard objects, but will cause massive hemmoraging when they shatter in soft tissue. They're also easy to use, just point at something you don't like and pull the trigger. If you're untrained with the firearm you use to defend your home, I suggest you get some qualified training rather than heading into the mountains with Rastus and Jethro to shoot at them thar propane tanks.
  4. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
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    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:34pm

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     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you aren't going to use a rocket launcher, why bother?
  5. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I've read, police are adopting weapons with the 5.7mm round for close quarters/indoors because it penetrates extremely well but tumbles inside the body and doesn't exit to go through walls and such.

    This is why I'm checking out the FN Five Seven, or in my wet dreams, P-90.
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:48pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm unaware of the 5.7's ballistics once it penetrates flesh, but it goes through kevlar and ceramic plate. If you fire it inside your house it's guaranteed to go through the walls.
  7. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:50pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    I'm unaware of the 5.7's ballistics once it penetrates flesh, but it goes through kevlar and ceramic plate. If you fire it inside your house it's guaranteed to go through the walls.
    Yeah, if you miss! The threat of shooting one of your family members through the wall should motivate you to practice marksmanship that much more.
  8. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:50pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Read the ballistics on the Five-seveN pistol first, and think how big 5.7mm is compared to - say a 5.56 or a .22. How well would a bullet that small do coming out of a five inch barrell?

    5.7 is made to penetrate body armor - the weapons are SEXY but the size of the bullet bugs me.
  9. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know if this is the best way to do things, but this is the way I have it layed out. I have a number of loaded weapons spewn around my house in various locations. In my nightstand, I have a .22 loaded with hollowpoint subsonic rounds. This is the gun I feel I can reach over, grab and fire multiple times in a half awake state.

    In my living room, I have a .45 in one spot and a 12 ga in another, so I can pick depending on circumstances.

    If I had to pick one gun for home defense it would be the .45.
    ďWe are surrounded by warships and donít have time to talk. Please pray for us.Ē ó One Somali Pirate.
  10. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2006 11:54pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the sources from which I get that, (about a P-90 which also shoots the round in question):

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    The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. We received five P90s into our inventory in 1999 along with several thousand 5.7mm rounds of ammunition. After a short period of in-house testing and training, the P90s became operational within our entry team elements. The P90 has been utilized primarily at the point man positions where its CQB features are best utilized.
    The first time I saw a P90, I couldnít help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven.
    We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds.

    Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date.
    I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to.

    I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, itís a great weapon. Its CQB features are many, so I will just touch on the high points.

    The weapon system, including both the P90 submachine gun and the FiveseveN pistol, is built around the SS190 5.7x28mm cartridge. One of the unique features about this system is that the cartridge can be fired from an assault rifle or a handgun. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The bullet contains no lead for environments that prohibit toxins.

    The round is not cheap but as the weapon becomes more popular here in the United States, the cost should come down. Winchester will soon assemble the 5.7mm round from imported FN components and also plans to make a hollowpoint round.

    The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO. The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm.
    The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round.

    Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration.

    In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds.


    The P90 works from a simple blow-back bolt in a bullpup design. It is as easy to break down and clean as any gun you will ever shoot. I have been amazed at how little residue I find even after hundreds of rounds. I find less residue than in most weapons fired only 50 rounds. The simplicity of the action provides almost no chance of malfunctions. We literally tried to make one of ours malfunction by refusing to clean it. After several thousand rounds we couldnít stand it anymore, broke down and cleaned it anyway. To this day, after thousands of rounds down range, I have yet to experience a malfunction with my P90.
    The ergonomic design provides comfort and speed on target but does not compromise accuracy. It can hold a respectable group at 100 yards and the recoil is about one third of an M4, and even less than a 9mm MP5. Recoil management and time back on target is easy. It has a two-stage trigger in full-auto mode that allows the shooter to fire single or full-auto fire with just trigger manipulationó no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned. With the P90 the shooter has to commit a conscious effort to pull through the semi-auto stage to the full auto mode.
    Every feature of the weapon can be operated equally from the right or left hand position. Spent casings eject straight down, which makes my partners on the firing line happy. No more doing the hot-brass-down-my-shirt dance. FN even has a slick little pouch that neatly attaches to the eject port. It will catch about a hundred casings before you have to dump it.
    The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo. The magazine is translucent, which allows the shooter to know how many rounds remain with just a glance, even while you operate the weapon because the magazine sits right on top of the weapon just below the shooterís cheek well.
    The P90 comes with a two or three rail option for after market accessories and an optional built in laser. One of the drawbacks of the weapon is poor iron sights and I donít really care for the optional factory optics. We popped them off and went with EOTech Holo sights. Normally, Iím not big on lasers, but in this case I use my built-in laser as a good back up to my holo sights should it malfunction.
    When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon Iím talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you canít go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.
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