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  1. milwaukee cop is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 2:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kempo-Goju Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    My 2 cents on "reality based self defense".

    I would like to share a few thoughts on the RBSD VS. SPORT debate. A little background about my expierience before I start my perspective. I am a competitive Judo and Karate player and a Pankration athelete, and am a 5 year veteren of the Milwaukee Police Department and former Marine. I only mention this to show that I have been involved in both schools of thought and have participated and applied, with various degrees of success and failur, both in compitition and on the street the above. I have to state right now that I support the sport based model as the primary focus on application. Yes, senario based training is very useful, and Yes weapons and multiple oppenents need to be addressed, but a system based just on foul tactics without the feed back offered in the sport based combat arts is a hollow shell. I like to comment on some commen arguements made by some RSBD people. 1) you dont want to grapple someone with a knife. I dont want to either, but when you are there you have to deal with it, my guess would be a practical knowledge of ground control and escapes learned from competitve judo ,BJJ,ect. would be better then some rehersed drill that Ive seen in a lot of RSBD systems. 2) There is no referee on the streets. Well there are no RSBD instructors with whisles to start or stop the senario either, anything done in any type of training and compitition will not be able to duplicate the actual event and what works in one event may not work in an event with similar circumstances. 3) Sports will develope poor muscle memory. RSBD people bring up Rickson Gracie blowing his knee trying to tackle a mugger and Mike Tyson breaking his hand hitting Mitch Green in a street fight. WHENEVER you are engaged in ANY use of force injury and death can result using ANY technique from ANY source. Nothing is foolproof, because fools are so crafty. I ll stop here because I would like some feedback befoe I continue.
  2. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:04pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to talk about paragraphs. Please I can't read your post.
  3. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think you'll get much disagreement from the regulars on this board.

    If you're looking for an argument you should try posting that at MAP or The Martialist.
  4. milwaukee cop is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kempo-Goju Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    not looking for an argument just sharing my thoughts on the subject and looking to hear other viewpoints. ps sorry about the paragraphs, couldnt figure out the font.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:19pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Throughout history SPORT has always been used to hone real combat skills. It was done in every warrior society so its funny as hell to see Modern wannabe "Masters of Defense" talk down about SPORT training.

    Oh and I thought it was Renzo not Rickson that blew out his knee. Everyone knows nothing short of Kryptonite and hurt Rickson!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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  6. Antisocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:27pm


     Style: FiFiFu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Throughout history SPORT has always been used to hone real combat skills. It was done in every warrior society so its funny as hell to see Modern wannabe "Masters of Defense" talk down about SPORT training.

    Oh and I thought it was Renzo not Rickson that blew out his knee. Everyone knows nothing short of Kryptonite and hurt Rickson!
    Of course, back then, without any exaggeration, the line between "sports" and "real combat" was rather thin. People got accidentally or not so accidentally killed all the time in sporting events...

    Of course, whether such excessive brutality actually would make better warriors than today's sanitized training and competition is open to question.
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:39pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by milwaukeecop2
    RSBD people bring up Rickson Gracie blowing his knee trying to tackle a mugger and Mike Tyson breaking his hand hitting Mitch Green in a street fight.

    Bullshit arguments. They are counting on you not being astute enough to ask them for proof that doing their way somehow magically protects your knees and/or hands.


    It was Renzo Gracie who hurt his knee in a "street fight" (whatever the **** that means). Three things immediately spring to mind:

    1. He recently had surgery on his knee before he had this fight - it was VERY vulnerable to anything - he ran a risk of re-injury just by squatting down on a toilet!

    2. You never hear about nobodies blowing out their knees because no one cares if a normal person blows out their knees and can't compete in their next scheduled bout.


    3. HE STILL WON THE FIGHT!




    Now, when it comes to Mike Tyson breaking his hand, three things spring to mind:

    1. Boxers hit fucking hard! Anyone who hits hard runs the risk of breaking their hand no matter how they make a fist.

    2. You never hear about nobodies breaking their hands because no one cares if a normal person breaks their hands and can't compete in their next scheduled bout.

    3. HE STILL WON THE FIGHT!



    The only caveat to this whole "Street vs. Sport" nonsense is written right into the U.S. Army Combatives Manual FM 3-25.150 Appendix B:


    A look at the history of combatives systems reveals two fundamental mistakes, both of which are related to competition. The first mistake is having no form of competition, which is generally due to the thought that the techniques are "too dangerous" for competitions. Although many techniques are too dangerous for live competition, many benefits can be gained by competing even in a limited set of techniques. The boxer is a better puncher than the traditional martial artist not because of the mechanics of punching, but because his technique has been refined through competition.

    Competitions are useful for military units for many other reasons. The problem of developing is really the problem of how to Competitions can motivate subordinate unit leaders to emphasize combatives training, which leads to a strong unit program. Competitions also encourage the pursuit of excellence in soldiers.

    The other mistake is that once a method of competition has been selected, training will naturally become focused on winning at competition rather than on winning in combat. To gain the benefits from competition without falling into the trap of a competitive focus, the unit must have a graduated system of competition rules. In this way there will be no competitive advantage to training specifically for competitions. Those who do will find themselves unprepared for the additional techniques that are allowed at the next level of competition. This also allows for a very safe subset of techniques to be used at the lower levels without loosing the combat focus.

    In other words: COMPETE AT SOME LEVEL IN SOME WAY. BUT DO IT RIGHT!

    :cool:
  8. Spezza is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:41pm


     Style: Escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No argument here.

    (But actually, I believe it was Renzo, not Rickson who hurt his knee in a street confrontation.)
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by milwaukeecop2
    not looking for an argument just sharing my thoughts on the subject and looking to hear other viewpoints. ps sorry about the paragraphs, couldnt figure out the font.


    Psst: Press enter. (Don't tell anyone else the paragraph secret.)
  10. Spezza is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 3:43pm


     Style: Escrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Props to FM 3-25.150. Well said.
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