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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:41pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not trying to take sides just trying to get a feel. I have heard of functional and non-functional strength.

    Until emevas said snake oil I just took it as fact. Still sitting on the fence but, this has me interested.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:46pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    My point is it's a moot point, ie a waste of time.

    I edited my post in case you didn't see it all first time round.

    Of course max strength will carry over but not into all avenues of the strength spectrum.
    Not into all avenues, no, but it will contribute into all, and from there, sport specificity takes hold. Again, I'm talking about building a foundation of strength upon a few basic heavyass multijoint compound movements. If you find someone that can deadlift 600, Squat 500, and bench 400, and then start training them into other sports, unless it's competitive gymastics (where it's much more an issue of balance, coordination, and ratio strenght compared to simply having strength), they are most likely going to find that the strength they have spent their time building will carry over into other activities, it just needs to be refined and redirected.

    I have never, in my life, lifted with the intention of making my right cross stronger, my left hook more powerful, my shot more explosive, etc etc. I train like a powerlifter/strongman. I've also never had any trouble taking the strength I've trained and ultizing it in my sports.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:58pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    Do you think this guy can deadlift 800lbs? I don't get it. How come its functional when it comes to wonky applications like this but when you switch sports it becomes unfunctional? You won't be doing 1 armed pull-ups in a fight anymore than you'd be doing 800lb deadlifts.
    No, i don't think he could but then it also seems obvious to me that he wouldn't need to.

    Are you even reading my posts properly?

    They are unorthodox in the sense that you aren't in a cage to lift uniformly balanced barbells etc. The body is stressed throughout many different angles and so this should be replicated in the exercises undertaken.
    To be honest i think you are just being pedantic now. Throughout all my posts i have stated that this is just another slice of the big training pie that should not be neglected for an MAist, but all you can come back with is a reference to power lifting?

    I'm a firm believer that you should include uniform compound exercises and i ask you to highlight anything i've posted that would contradict this. However i also believe that is only part of it and that is why i advocate exercises mentioned previously.

    Do you believe this sort of training is a waste of time?

    Strength training is broadening, but it seems you may be to naive to see this.
  4. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 5:06pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    No, i don't think he could but then it also seems obvious to me that he wouldn't need to.

    Are you even reading my posts properly?.
    Left to right, top to bottom. Maybe there's a more functional way to do it? =P


    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    To be honest i think you are just being pedantic now. Throughout all my posts i have stated that this is just another slice of the big training pie that should not be neglected for an MAist, but all you can come back with is a reference to power lifting?

    I'm a firm believer that you should include uniform compound exercises and i ask you to highlight anything i've posted that would contradict this.
    This isn't my argument, I'm simply saying that functional strength is a bullshit term. There is "strength" and there is "not strength".

    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Strength training is broadening, but it seems you may be to naive to see this.
    I'm just glad we all kept our cool here and didn't resort to name calling.

    Again I ask, what are we to call disfunctional strength? I wonder of those poor Strongman that cry themselves to sleep, wishing they could be functional.

    and I gotta conclude with these tidbits



    Last edited by Emevas; 7/08/2007 5:21pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  5. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 5:22pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    THe muscles of bench press aren't really that essential to punching as squats/deadlifts/overhead pressing would be. How are they on that movements? ANd how is their technique?
    Again, they can lift quite a bit! I was not using the BP as a measure of strength per se ("waddaya bench?") just as a brief illustration. Technique is PDG - especially as our PTI's ride our ass if we deviate too much.

    Interestingly the same guys struggle with chins & dips more so than me and I can only just about BP my own weight (200)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    And why would anyone ever use Bodybuilders as an example of a strength athlete? Bodybuilding is about phsique, not performance. Look at Mariusz Pudzianowski. World's strongest man, amatuer boxer and Kyokushin fighter. I have a feeling that's not "unfunctional strength".
    Yeah, Mariuz is one of my personal heroes - he is a frickin' machine...but he is also an anomaly. Replace him with, say, Glenn Ross and your argument weakens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I assure you that someone that is strong is strong. A powerlifter/strongman isn't going to have any trouble mashing you when he gets his hands on you. Yeah, he won't be able to sprint or hang upside down from a rope, but I don't think you're going to do that in a fight either. I have a feeling sprinters and professional climbing up a cable while hanging upsiderdowners will have trouble totaling elite or deadlifting a car for 40 reps as well.
    I would rather be able to chin for 20+ reps than bust open cans of spinach with my bare hands...one is endurance based, the other one-off power based. That said, i also advocate a balance in training methodology so it is not a choice of "one or the other but not both.

    Few combat athletes...in fact few athletes period...concentrate on one aspect of strength training. that is why i throw plyometrics, hypertrophics, Power, endurance , bodyweight into an overall training program (well I say "me" , but the PTI's actually drafted it...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    It's sport specificity.
    In other words functional strength for a given activity!

    It seems this may end up being a case of potaytoes/potahtoes
  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 5:28pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic

    Few combat athletes...in fact few athletes period...concentrate on one aspect of strength training. that is why i throw plyometrics, hypertrophics, Power, endurance , bodyweight into an overall training program (well I say "me" , but the PTI's actually drafted it...)

    I'm all in favor of that, as is any serious strength athlete. Powerlifters all have dynamic and repitition effort days paired along with grinding work and Max effort work.

    I agree there are different types of strength (speed strength, power, max effort strength), I just don't think "functional" is one of them.

    Also, odds are the reason the folks that can outlift you struggle more on chins and dips is because they weigh more than you. Someone that weighs 160 is only performing a chin with 160lbs, whereas someone that weighs 200 has to do the movement with more weight. If you guys weigh the same and they're still struggling, either their fast twitch dominant in terms of bodytype or just idiots.
    Last edited by Emevas; 7/08/2007 5:32pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 6:52pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The main reason is that they really don't practice those moves as much as they should.

    When I say "functional strength" I mean "functional for a purpose" rather than an elusive concept in it's own right. I suspect you mean the same thing
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 7:53pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    The main reason is that they really don't practice those moves as much as they should.

    When I say "functional strength" I mean "functional for a purpose" rather than an elusive concept in it's own right. I suspect you mean the same thing
    Essentially, but at that point I typically just call it CNS/motor unit efficiency or as the Ruskies call it "skill strength".

    "Functional strength" as a term has been promoted by Men's Health and 24 hour fitness as the new wave of training, putting people on swiss balls and balance boards while doing 1/8 squats with a dumbbell in the rectum. Or by Matt Furrey as a way to swindle people with exercise secrets passed onto him by a dead guy =P
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. tyciol is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2007 8:03pm


     Style: Tae Kwon-Do, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please don't acuse Pavel Tsatsouline of buying into the same bodyweight exercise crap that Matt Furey does.

    Pavel has very sensitive principles. He released just one book on bodyweight, which was the one-arm pushup and the pistol squat, both being very useful unilateral exercises which are very sufficient stimulation even without added weight.

    He's also an advocate of squats, deadlifts, bent pressing, snatches, etc. He loves olympic and powerlifting, and says if you get injured it's because you're doing it wrong.

    Furey's a fool who just says you get injured no matter what, that BW is superior in every way, and that weights suck and offer nothing. He makes up things about magic, chi, monkeys, and is one of those guys buying into the cultish 'think your own reality' BS.

    As for Elastic Steel, the gravity advantage thing is about altering leverege rather than piling weight on as one option. He seems to prefer stretch bands as a resistance equipment rather than weight, which makes sense since he is oriented towards flexibility before strength.

    Furey only started marketing stuff like power pushups and strand pulling because people were failing horribly and being weak on his system, so he needed to add functional apparati, not to mention he could sell more things that way.

    Even though I'm sure the bodybuilder-type models you see on Bowflex commercials might have worked out previously, most people's changes could be adequately explained by the Bowflex.

    I don't see why everyone hates it, if you're not actually maxing out the weight settings on the machine and can't upgrade anymore, then it's obviously useful. Who's done that, and for how many exercises that the machine offers?
    Last edited by tyciol; 7/09/2007 8:05pm at .
  10. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2007 8:17pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I actually own a Bowflex and it is PDG - I would recommend it to anyone (except possibly Chris Benoit...)
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