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  1. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 2:21pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    Not per se - I know several of my colleagues who can bench press small motor vehicles but cannot utilise that strength to punch worth a damn...you are pretty fucked if they grab you though!
    THe muscles of bench press aren't really that essential to punching as squats/deadlifts/overhead pressing would be. How are they on that movements? ANd how is their technique?

    And why would anyone ever use Bodybuilders as an example of a strength athlete? Bodybuilding is about phsique, not performance. Look at Mariusz Pudzianowski. World's strongest man, amatuer boxer and Kyokushin fighter. I have a feeling that's not "unfunctional strength".

    I assure you that someone that is strong is strong. A powerlifter/strongman isn't going to have any trouble mashing you when he gets his hands on you. Yeah, he won't be able to sprint or hang upside down from a rope, but I don't think you're going to do that in a fight either. I have a feeling sprinters and professional climbing up a cable while hanging upsiderdowners will have trouble totaling elite or deadlifting a car for 40 reps as well. It's sport specificity.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  2. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 2:36pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bench press muscles not that important?

    Pecs & Delts = horizontal flexion
    Tris = elbow extension
    Anterior delts

    Obviously a lot of power comes from the core and legs too but they are still important.

    Like i said, the movements are made to be as close to replicating the sport that you can get in a strength exercise. Pudzianowski won't be training to hurl barrels simply by squatting or deadlifting, he's going to be hurling barrels in training. Believe it or not, this is a 'functional' exercise for him as it exactly replicates what he does in competition.

    For martial arts it's not that easy as your main goal is not to simply overcome a resistance. Obviously you aren't hanging from ropes suspended over the cage but you are using your grip, leg strength and hitting muscles in a different way than you would by doing standard lifts.

    Why not use body builders as an example? I didn't state anywhere in my post that they are the strongest guys in the world but at the end of the day they have to overload their muscles to adapt and gain size, which inevitably means progressively lifting more weight.
  3. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 2:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Bench press muscles not that important?

    Pecs & Delts = horizontal flexion
    Tris = elbow extension
    Anterior delts

    Obviously a lot of power comes from the core and legs too but they are still important..
    Look at where dominance is placed. Most people bench with a bodybuilding style approach rather than powerlifting, making it a pectoral dominant movement that recruits the delts and triceps. THe pecs are barely a factor in a proper punch. The tricep and delts are involved in the explosive force at the end, but are not nearly as essential as good form paired with a strong base via the legs and core.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Like i said, the movements are made to be as close to replicating the sport that you can get in a strength exercise. Pudzianowski won't be training to hurl barrels simply by squatting or deadlifting..
    I can get tons of videos of him in the gym squatting and deadlifting to prepare for WSM off of youtube. Almost every strongman spends a good amount of time in the gym building up their foundation through some key lifts. Most WSM competitors came into the sport after having an extensive background in either Olympic Weightlifting (if they are from the eastern block) or Powerlifting (if they are from the western hemisphere), mainly because those two events involve building a foundation of strength through a few essential movements (for powerlifting, the Big 3 plus the accessory work, for Olympic lifting, the snatch and clean&jerk paired with front squatting and overhead work). Again, someone that is strong is strong. A foundation of strength built from simple, heavy compounds will transfer itself over into almost any activity. Someone that can squat, deadlift, and overhead a lot of weight will be a strong dude in almost any activity.

    Yeah, they won't be as good at said activity as someone that trains actively for it, but once they start that training (as Bill Kazimer demonstrates with his transition from Powerlifting to Strongman), things tend to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    For martial arts it's not that easy as your main goal is not to simply overcome a resistance. Obviously you aren't hanging from ropes suspended over the cage but you are using your grip, leg strength and hitting muscles in a different way than you would by doing standard lifts..
    I work my grip and leg strength just fine with deadlifts. If I want different angles, I can do front squats.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Why not use body builders as an example? I didn't state anywhere in my post that they are the strongest guys in the world but at the end of the day they have to overload their muscles to adapt and gain size, which inevitably means progressively lifting more weight.
    Because they aren't strength athletes, plain and simple. It would be like me using movie stars in action films as examples of martial artist. Bodybuilders don't train to put on as much strength as possible in relation to their bodyweight, NOR is their primary concern muscular size. THey goal is the perfect phsyique, which is not just size, but also shape, definition, symmetry and balance. This is much different training than just "getting as big and strong as possible". It's a lot of time dedicated to polishing and refining their technique.

    In the golden era, a bodybuilder would be a strength athlete, but as it stands, they're phsyique athletes. Yes, they can be strong, but they aren't a good candidate for the argument compared to a strongman, olympic lifter or powerlifter.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  4. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 3:10pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're misreading me.

    Pudzianowski won't be training to hurl barrels simply by squatting or deadlifting
    As in, that's not the only method of training they're going to use is it? Obviously they are going to be squatting and deadlifting because, funnily enough, a lot of if not almost all of the events include squatting and deadlifting. So guess what, these are functional exercises for them.

    To be honest i don't think you get the point so i may be wasting my time. All the people you refer to perform exercises that are functional for their given profession.

    Watch that All Access with Sean Sherk that i mentioned earlier and you might see what i'm getting at.

    P.S. I'm guessing you don't have to be very strong to do this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNvEpH2L1o

    But at the end of the day you don't need to be functional to BB
    Last edited by spirez; 7/08/2007 3:51pm at .
  5. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 3:59pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    You're misreading me.


    As in, that's not the only method of training they're going to use is it? Obviously they are going to be squatting and deadlifting because, funnily enough, a lot of if not almost all of the events include squatting and deadlifting. So guess what, these are functional exercises for them.

    To be honest i don't think you get the point so i may be wasting my time. All the people you refer to perform exercises that are functional for their given profession.

    Yes, and my point is, they are strong people. Once again, are you honestly saying Mariusz couldn't handle himself in a fight, or that his strength is unfunctional or disfunctional? That it is without function?


    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    P.S. I'm guessing you don't have to be very strong to do this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNvEpH2L1o

    But at the end of the day you don't need to be functional to BB
    I see a video of Ronnie Coleman, former competitive powerlifter, lifitng a lot of weight on an angled leg press machine. You could have at least used his 800lb deadlift video, which everyone always uses when the argument comes up that Bodybuilders aren't strength athletes, which convieniently ignore Ronnie Coleman's past as a competitive powerlifter. This actually serves to prove my point. The leg press is not one of the 3 movements for powerlifting. It is neither bench, deadlift, nor squat. However, Ronnie, having built up a strength foundation built upon acheiving a maximal performance in just those 3 lifts, was able to transfer this "disfunctional strength" onto another movement.

    Thanks for agreeing with me that people that train for strength are strong.
    Last edited by Emevas; 7/08/2007 4:04pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting discussion. Now, you wait Emevas before you respond.

    Spirez, what is your definition of functional strength?
  7. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:34pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my case, sport-specific strength training or replicating as close as you can get. So again to refer back to how Sherk trains, he utilises things such as tyre flipping, resistance band sprints/scrambles, gorilla walks, rope climbs, sledge hammer etc as they are exercises that try to replicate what he will need in a fight. They are unorthodox in the sense that you aren't in a cage to lift uniformly balanced barbells etc. The body is stressed throughout many different angles and so this should be replicated in the exercises undertaken.

    I've already stated that this should only be part of a training program for a fighter along with strength/conditioning etc, yet Emevas seems to be oblivious to most of the things i write.

    Emevas, how many times have i stated that power lifters have functional strength for what they do. If someone's sport revolves around deadlifting and squatting then what are they going to perform? Squats and deadlifts!

    Why do they not train sprints, jumps or bodyweight plyometrics? Because it is not a part of their sport and the time would be better spent elsewhere.

    Do you think he could demonstrate this sort of explosive/speed strength?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90xhaI8TNgA

    Or perform a one-arm pullup?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itraKZFVxug

    I doubt it, but then why would he need to? His time would be spent lifting cars, dragging trains/planes/trucks, lifting and pressing atlas stones etc because that's what he needs to do.

    However. for a martial artist there is more to their training than simply lifting uniform weights, for the reasons i stated in the first paragraph.

    Do you understand that strength isn't just how much weight someone can lift?

    Mariusz being able to handle himself is a moot point and brings nothing to this debate. It's obvious that if he caught you you'd be in big trouble but that's not to say he couldn't get destroyed by a smaller, quicker guy.
    Last edited by spirez; 7/08/2007 4:38pm at .
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:38pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Emevas, how many times have i stated that power lifters have functional strength for what they do. If someone's sport revolves around deadlifting and squatting then what are they going to perform? Squats and deadlifts!.

    My point is that their strength has carryover to other activities. Again, I will ask you yet again, are you saying that their strength will not have carryover to other activities? Are you saying their strength is "unfunctional"?

    This is my whole point about functional strength being snake oil. It's a total false dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Mariusz being able to handle himself is a moot point and brings nothing to this debate. It's obvious that if he caught you you'd be in big trouble but that's not to say he couldn't get destroyed by a smaller, quicker guy
    And a smaller, quicker guy could get destroyed by Mariusz as well. I don't get your point.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:39pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spirez
    Or perform a one-arm pullup?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itraKZFVxug
    Do you think this guy can deadlift 800lbs? I don't get it. How come its functional when it comes to wonky applications like this but when you switch sports it becomes unfunctional? You won't be doing 1 armed pull-ups in a fight anymore than you'd be doing 800lb deadlifts.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  10. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:41pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My point is it's a moot point, ie a waste of time.

    I edited my post in case you didn't see it all first time round.

    Of course max strength will carry over but not into all avenues of the strength spectrum.
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