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  1. DaChinkOfSteel is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 9:47am


     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    MMA Evolving...or devolving?

    Let's look at how MMA has changed over the past 13 years since UFC began in America and see where it is going...do you feel this is actually "evolving" or "devolving"?...

    1) Royce/BJJ Era - American MMA began with BJJ dominating all, shocking people back into recognizing the value of ground-fighting and busting all myths about which MA's worked/didn't-work...

    2) Wrestler Era - High-level wrestlers came into the picture, learned submission defense, and pioneered effective GnP to compliment their already effective takedowns and conditioning...

    3) Lay 'n Pray Era - Both breeds of groundfighters learn to stalemate each other...

    4) Return of the strikers - Striking becomes "neglected", world-class strikers learn how to keep fights standing and get them back to standing...

    5) Cross-training Era - becoming well-rounded with ground, striking, and takedown skills AND balancing with conditioning and strategy/gameplans is a MUST...

    7) ?????? - It looks as though with the popularity of MMA growing among the masses, booing when fights hit the ground or in clinches, and frequent stand-ups...MMA is devolving to basically San Shou or something...basically kickboxing with takedowns...of course there are some great cases of epic ground-fights (Cummo/Stevenson and Riggs/Diaz come to mind) but I think it's all very subjective to what the ref "feels" is ground-inactivity...

    I think another problem arises when the ref literally gives in to appease the booing crowd, regardless of whether or not the groundfight is actually progressing...

    I dunno...just rambling here...

    ***Edit*** Let me distinguish by saying this applies to American MMA...namely UFC.
    Last edited by DaChinkOfSteel; 3/27/2006 10:07am at .
  2. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 3:06pm

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree that stand-ups are too frequent or premature. As I said in another thread where this came up, fighters are typically separated after 30-45 of almost complete inactivity when up against the cage and are rarely brought back up from the ground without at least a full minute going by. That's 20% of the entire round. Fights where at least one fighter is actively attempting to strike, submit, or improve his position are kept on the ground.

    And here's a news flash to the people that complain about the focus on fights exciting. Professional sports, MMA included, are primarily about entertainment. That is why they exist and why people spend money to watch them. Without fan interest, there is no UFC/MMA.

    One common comment I hear a lot is that the majority of America considers groundfighting and/clich work boring. That's bullshit. They find BORING ground/clinch work boring. The crowds roar just a loud for a aggressive takedown or submission attempt as they do for a flurry of punches. Fans like to see action, it doesn't matter if it's on the feet or on the ground.

    All it takes for MMA fights to be exciting is for each fighter to try to WIN, instead of focusing on NOT LOSING.
  3. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 3:24pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, but I'm watching "MMA" not "BJJ/wrestling/ancient WC ground kata". If you people were circling each other for 5 minutes looking to get superior punching position you'd have just as many people bitching as you do when people spending 5 minutes trying to get superior ground position.

    I say stand them up faster. That pressure will make them work harder to win like Pun said.
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  4. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 3:31pm

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rounds are only 5 minutes. How long are they supposed to wait? If it's going to take 4 minutes before someone can improve their postion to the point where they can try something obvious, then the fight should be stood up.

    Doing so creates opportunities for grapplers too. That gives them a chance to secure another takedown with a possibility for a more advantageous position where they can go for a submission right away. That's exactly what happened in Sobral vs. Van Aresdale.
  5. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 3:59pm

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raynor
    I say cut the rounds entirely and let them go 20 minutes straight.

    And you can't compare the groundwork to stand up because boxing technique isn't "no punches until the position is right", while BJJ technique is exactly that.

    Rounds are part of American MMA and are necessary for sanctioning reasons. That will never change. We are lucky they set the rounds at five minutes instead of 3.

    A major part of striking technique is making sure when you throw, it's with a purpose, and you're not just wasting your energy. But you can't wait for that perfect opening. Sometimes you have to take risks and manufacture something. The same goes for grappling in MMA.

    Attempting a sweep, sub, or pass without the perfect position may get you countered, but that is the risk grapplers need to take under today's rules.
  6. DaChinkOfSteel is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 4:06pm


     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher
    Rounds are part of American MMA and are necessary for sanctioning reasons. That will never change. We are lucky they set the rounds at five minutes instead of 3.

    A major part of striking technique is making sure when you throw, it's with a purpose, and you're not just wasting your energy. But you can't wait for that perfect opening. Sometimes you have to take risks and manufacture something. The same goes for grappling in MMA.

    Attempting a sweep, sub, or pass without the perfect position may get you countered, but that is the risk grapplers need to take under today's rules.
    Well said RE: risk/return...

    That said, however...do you feel that may be a weakness in BJJ strategy? Always position before submission...perhaps a "catch wrestling" strategy would be good; submission before position (trying to submit from all positions, regardless of where you are.)

    I can see where you are coming from and fighters should force positions and opening, rather that wait for them to happen...
  7. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 7:50pm

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     Style: Electricity, Speed

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DaChinkOfSteel
    Well said RE: risk/return...

    That said, however...do you feel that may be a weakness in BJJ strategy? Always position before submission...perhaps a "catch wrestling" strategy would be good; submission before position (trying to submit from all positions, regardless of where you are.)

    I can see where you are coming from and fighters should force positions and opening, rather that wait for them to happen...
    You've never grappled before, have you?
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  8. DaChinkOfSteel is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2006 11:44pm


     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I train bjj right now...just not full-on MMA...like we'll roll and we'll kinda throw slaps at each others' heads...
  9. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2006 1:05am

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think you mean submission before position, but you're exactly right. But like I said, IMO fighters should be trying to win, more than trying not to lose. If you're in someone's guard you can't be afraid to strike or pass, simply because the guy might be able to sweep or submit you.

    The other thing to consider is that in today's sport, in both UFC and Pride, records don't matter too much. The loser of an exciting fight will often be better off career wise than the winner of a boring one.
  10. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2006 2:36pm


     Style: TKD; BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher
    I think you mean submission before position, but you're exactly right. But like I said, IMO fighters should be trying to win, more than trying not to lose. If you're in someone's guard you can't be afraid to strike or pass, simply because the guy might be able to sweep or submit you.

    The other thing to consider is that in today's sport, in both UFC and Pride, records don't matter too much. The loser of an exciting fight will often be better off career wise than the winner of a boring one.
    For example, Rashad Evans. For a guy with a six figure contract I haven't seen him fight at all yet.
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