9mm vs. 9mm Hollow Point

**Poop Loops** · Posted On: 3/26/2006 8:31pm

Originally Posted by Samuel Browning

Okay, as long as he is still a threat you can continue to shoot him, including if he is on the ground. In a civilian environment if you say something like, "I thought he was no longer able to move but I shot him again anyway", or "I walked over and shot him in the head, when he was lying on the ground" then the prosecutor may get very surly. Never say such things to law enforcement. Its, "I was afraid for my life so I continued to shoot" Cop, "But he dropped his gun!" You "I saw him with the gun and I never saw him drop anything!" Immediately call a lawyer. Do not make any statement, especially a written one, to the police.

It's ridiculous how cops say they are the good guys, but try to get you like that. :XXpuke:

Thanks for the advice.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 3/26/2006 8:37pm

COPS on the scene are usually pretty neutral about the situation, and in my experience may even coach a person who was maybe a tad "overzealous" about what to say when the next guy up the totem poll shows up.

**Poop Loops** · Posted On: 3/26/2006 8:40pm

Speaking from experience?

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 3/26/2006 8:47pm

I play poker with a lot of cops. They have, let us say, at times, idosyncratically failed to fully excercise dilligence dispite a generally high state of suspicious alertness on the part of the specific officers.

**HHH** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 3:20pm

People interested in the penetrative power of various ammo should take a look at <a href="http://www.theboxotruth.com/">The Box of Truth</a>. This guy fires various brands and types of ammo into various materials and reports on how many layers penetrated, how big the hole was, etc. It's not super scientific, but it's better than most of the speculation out there.

Interestingly, he fired some 9mmHP through pine boards, and they didn't deform. The nose just filled with wood and they kept going.

The conventional wisdom on HP ammo is that it does more damage to your target, but is less likely to over-penetrate and strike people behind your target (or in other rooms). I can't say whether this is true, as I have yet to find a material that I can penetrate with ball ammo that I can't penetrate with HP.

**Neildo** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 3:28pm

Wow! That website is awesome.

Recommended viewing: The locks of truth

**ItOnlyHurtsOnce** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 3:33pm

Originally Posted by HHH

Interestingly, he fired some 9mmHP through pine boards, and they didn't deform. The nose just filled with wood and they kept going.

The conventional wisdom on HP ammo is that it does more damage to your target, but is less likely to over-penetrate and strike people behind your target (or in other rooms). I can't say whether this is true, as I have yet to find a material that I can penetrate with ball ammo that I can't penetrate with HP.

Pine wood has very different characteritics than human flesh, muscle and bone. These tests need to be done using ballistics gel, for more realistic results. His water boxes are what I would consider to be his more accurate tests, where you can see bullet expansion. He also states that running +p ammo is known to cause over penetration.

**Don Gwinn** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 10:39pm

You wouldn't expect wood to make a hollowpoint expand--maybe deform, but they'll be through the wood and past it pretty fast. Hollowpoint bullets expand because the water-filled flesh exerts hydraulic pressure against the inside of the hollowpoint cavity as the bullet passes through the flesh, forcing it into the hollowpoint at very high speed. The hydraulic pressure pushes out against the hollow point cavity in all directions, and the cavity gives way at the sides. In a perfect world, this results in a "mushroom" shape with a wide, flat front for maximum wound channel but still attached to the base of the bullet so that weight is retained. Weight increases penetration.

Any way, if you're trying to decide which will penetrate less through wood or drywall, it makes sense that there's not much difference. However, ball is a lot more likely to go through-and-through your opponent, should you manage to strike him with your poisonous plumbum projectile. The hollow point is much more likely to stop inside a body.

You simply can't make wide blanket statements about what "hollow point" ammunition will do. "Hollow point" includes dozens of different designs in any given caliber. Overall, yes, hollow points will stop better than ball. However, when discussing, for instance, 9mm, you've got several very different loads which are all ball (full metal jacket.) These range from 115 to 147 grains, and there are some lighter ones in the exotic fringe (probably some heavier ones I don't know about, truth be told.) 115 grain is supersonic, so is 124, but 147 grain factory loads are subsonic. This doesn't even try to include the hundreds of different loads handloaders create in the search for the load that fits their guns perfectly.

"Hollow point" is even more ambiguous. In addition to different bullet weights, powder charges and powder formulations, you now have the hollow point design to think about. There are wide ones, narrow ones, deep ones, shallow ones, the ones with posts, the ones without, the ones with scored lines to make them burst into "petal" shapes when they expand, the ones with scalloped edges. There's Pow'rBall, which has a plastic ball in the hollow point so that it should expand even if it hits a heavy coat, which can sometimes fill a standard hollowpoint and keep it from expanding.

Don't let anyone tell you not to use a 9mm if that's what you prefer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 9mm if it works for you. Very few practical fighting handgun calibers are reliable stoppers. .45 isn't. Neither is .40, frankly. I like .45, but I like the way it shoots and the fact that it makes it possible to handload and reuse brass a LOT. I'm cheap.