What's the real application of push hands/chi sao?

**MEGA JESUS-SAMA** · Posted On: 3/23/2006 5:43pm

Originally Posted by Krackie

Kagan. If you are truly curious about my experiences, then pm me. I suspect you are not truly interested but just wanting to do some verbal chi sau. This thread is about chi sau aplications, so let's try and stick to it, no?

It's easier to deceive one person than to deceive an entire message forum, eh?

**~SS2~** · Posted On: 3/23/2006 6:56pm

*sigh* I really wish people would just give a simple explanation, rather than having this whole farcical run-around about speaking privately, sparring doesn't work, ect. Really, the main purpose of Chi Sao is to develop relaxation, muscle control, and largely, to test for gaps in the opponents defenses. However, it's ludicris to say that you don't need sparring as well. Training in Chi Sao is invaluable to close quarters combat. Bruce Lee, for example, trained in this area diligently. However, if you don't do some sort of medium to hard contact sparring (which Bruce Lee, did, along with any skilled wing chun practicioner), you probably won't be able to get into close quarters, which is a wing chun practicioner's major strength. As for the application, it's very hard to explain, but I'll try. Both individuals have their arms touching, relaxed, and sort of moving them around, rolling off of eachother. When one individual gets ready to strike, the other feels, and eventually learns to see, the change in muscle tension, thus blocking or parrying the technique, and continuing. At the same time, you are testing for gaps in their defenses. You basically attempt to strike eachother as many times as possible, and foil the opponents attacks. Yeah, it'll improve your strikes, but you have to learn how to get that close in a fight, through sparring, first. Since words a rather cheap, I'll attempt to find a video.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 3/23/2006 8:33pm

Originally Posted by Krackie

I am interested. However, I'm not particularly interested in your "shhhhhh, I'll tell you the secrets but only privately" nonsense. If you think you have something to say about "ChiSao applications", then say it.

What secrets?? Am refering to my personal experiences, not "secret WC/chi sau techniques. Holy F*%$k read my posts, and try responding instead of reacting. Unless you do this don't expect me to respond to your BS - so there you can have the last word brother.

I am reading your posts - perhaps somewhat more carefully than the amount of care you are taking to write them. The purpose of this thread is to question the purpose of ChiSao and/or push hands.

**Astrosmurf** · Posted On: 3/24/2006 8:58am

We can split up the discussion into several question?

1.What is the objective(s) of chisao training?

2.Does it reach the objective(s)?

3.If the objective(s) are reached, how long does it take? (comparison to other training methods)

**Astrosmurf** · Posted On: 3/24/2006 9:15am

Originally Posted by Astrosmurf

We can split up the discussion into several question?

1.What is the objective(s) of chisao training?

2.Does it reach the objective(s)?

3.If the objective(s) are reached, how long does it take? (comparison to other training methods)

To try to give some of my own answers here:

1: a) Train tecniques from the forms in a flowing, less-competetive environment (getting a large number of repetitions without getting bored) before "bringing them over" to the sparring environment.

b) Purely as a traditional art. (Call it LARP:ing if you want to)

2&3: a) It is hard to measure this. It is probably not the most time-efficient way to do it.

b) Self-evident

If you are not intertested in Chi-sao for its own sake I think you are wasting your time to learn as alot of time is invested in learning the fundamentals before you can start doing it in a more "free" manner. It is also closer to the forms than to the sparring in manner of realism I think.

**~SS2~** · Posted On: 3/24/2006 5:56pm

Here's a few chi sao videos to accompany my previous post. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. Bruce Lee found it to be a necessary aspect of his training. As well, it deosn't take as long to learn as you claim. It's certainly a waste of time if not accompanied by sparring however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cel0-...arch=chi%20sao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LI7L...n%20kill%20you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3I...arch=chi%20sao

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 3/24/2006 5:59pm

Originally Posted by ~SS2~

Here's a few chi sao videos to accompany my previous post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cel0-...arch=chi%20sao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LI7L...n%20kill%20you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3I...arch=chi%20sao

.....

**~SS2~** · Posted On: 3/24/2006 6:02pm

Umm.....Yes?

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 8:29am

Since Krackie said there was no "cloak and dagger stuff", I thought it would be appropriate to bring the PMs back into the thread because this conversation has the potential to be interesting and quite relevant to the thread. Krackie has yet to reply, but I don't think he's signed on in the last couple days to check.

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

Alright, what's the cloak and dagger act that would prevent you from answering a realatively straightforward question in the thread?

How is what you are doing different than sparring that lets you "know"?

Originally Posted by Krackie

Hi There:
No cloak and dagger stuff. I have already answered the question about "knowing". I am not trying to be evasive, but no one can "know" until and if it happens for real. I have never claimed that I "know", but that I believe my WC and Chi Sau training has prepared me well. This has been born out in some real fights and in some near full-on energy attacks with multiple (3) fully padded/protected RCMP officers coming at me. Starting position was in a corner, eyes closed and they were all within 2 feet of me in varying start positions. When the whistle blew they would attack and I could open my eyes and defend. Only protective gear I had was a foamy head gear.

The intention of the original thread was to ask the intention/purpose of chi sau and push hands, not to question theeffectiveness of it or that of WC or Tai Chi. There are many other threads on BS to participate in that. It would be nice to actually have a good discourse on the actual topic without it getting side-tracked by the tiresome "does it work and where is the proof" stuff from the all too many anti-WC posters out there. I am not into debating this latter theme as we all have our preferences, choices and ultimatley we will take responsibility for them. i hope this answers your question. I don't mind conversing more, but I won't respond to questions already asked by others and answered by m epreviouisly.
Krackie

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

The stated purpose of this forum is to expose fraud, misconceptions and also to question many aspect of martial arts that all too many people take as gospel without critical thinking. One of the primary aspects of this approach is that, if someone makes a claim and someone else asks for proof, the person making the claim has to be prepared to provide the evidence to back up the claim. If that is something you are not interested in doing, then you are better off picking a different forum to post in because ignoring such a request will only get you the "tiresome discourse" you portend to dislike. Still, do not sell the Bullshido envoronment and the "Bully" method short; while the "signal to noise" ratio might be low at times, there are a lot of smart people on this forum.

You say you don't want to be evasive. However, I want to point out that you are because you have avoided my question again. Stories about what scenarios you may or may not have been in are all well and good, but it is not what I am asking you about.

In your post on the thread, you stated that "no one can know," but then right afterward you make a claim that "Chi Sau has prepared [you] well." Even by your criteria put forth here, that is a dubious juxtoposition. You are saying that you can't really know, but in reality, you know. However, as you pointed out only in your PM, "believing" is very different than knowing. If you wish to say I'm just arguing semantics, then fine. I'll accept that.

So, I'll ask my question again, this time using your word: How is what you are doing different than sparring that lets you "believe"? Sidestepping the "multiple attacker" argument again, what make you think a guy in a red-man suit trying to hurt you is not sparring - at least at some level?

**DaChinkOfSteel** · Posted On: 3/27/2006 10:28am

Originally Posted by ~SS2~

*sigh* I really wish people would just give a simple explanation, rather than having this whole farcical run-around about speaking privately, sparring doesn't work, ect. Really, the main purpose of Chi Sao is to develop relaxation, muscle control, and largely, to test for gaps in the opponents defenses. However, it's ludicris to say that you don't need sparring as well. Training in Chi Sao is invaluable to close quarters combat. Bruce Lee, for example, trained in this area diligently. However, if you don't do some sort of medium to hard contact sparring (which Bruce Lee, did, along with any skilled wing chun practicioner), you probably won't be able to get into close quarters, which is a wing chun practicioner's major strength. As for the application, it's very hard to explain, but I'll try. Both individuals have their arms touching, relaxed, and sort of moving them around, rolling off of eachother. When one individual gets ready to strike, the other feels, and eventually learns to see, the change in muscle tension, thus blocking or parrying the technique, and continuing. At the same time, you are testing for gaps in their defenses. You basically attempt to strike eachother as many times as possible, and foil the opponents attacks. Yeah, it'll improve your strikes, but you have to learn how to get that close in a fight, through sparring, first. Since words a rather cheap, I'll attempt to find a video.

The way you've described it...It sounds comparable to grappling "light"...just working on technique and whatnot with a partner...

But I feel the difference is, when grappling light, you're actually DOING what you're training to do.......grapple...and fundamentally, I feel grappling/BJJ is more practical because fundamentals like positioning, leverage, balance/base, etc. are all components...

I'm not knocking Chi Sao; Hell, it may work for you, but to me the videos I've seen of Chi Sao, it's an unrealistic representation of learning how to recognize gaps and whatnot against a resisting opponent...when you fight, you're never in any sort "hands-only" attached position and you're never in such a stance...

I'm a strong believer in "how you train is how you perform"...and exrecises like Chi Sao don't seem to be conducive to actual fighting...