Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
Chi sao is not push hands. Chi sao is some wing chun thing. Push hands is a general name for a whole bunch of different drills.

Push hands can be something fairly "dead" like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znVWJ...h=push%20hands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2cqK...h=push%20hands

or it can be more freeform like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWMM...h=push%20hands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqhAv...h=push%20hands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok3PG...h=push%20hands

And even more freeform, though still limited to crossarm contact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8HW...h=push%20hands

And then it gets applied to throwing and clinchwork:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...796596&q=shuai

(Guys from two different arts that use push hands -- including shuai jiao wrestlers.)

To get the kinds of attributes you *also* find at the beginning of this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...01&q=grappling

. . . by guys who I assume don't have any PH experience at all.

Push hands is a progressive practice that tries to encompass a whole lot of things, and that's probably it's meain weakness. As a progressive series of methods, it tries to cover entries for:

* Straight up throwing.
* Striking.
* Standing come-along style holds.

. . . so the curriculum is a bit large and holistic for its own good. For example, the wrestlers in the last video are doing things few Tai chi people whould ever do by dropping their heads and A-framing (otr whatever it's called). A Tai Chi guy would take a more upright posture because it's preferential striking and standing holds, but the pure grapplers are in a better position for takedown defense and DLTs. One definite flaw in push hands compared to pummeling is that PH practice teaches you to maintain peng (the distance and shape of your standup guard) instead of getting chest to chest. There are exceptions to this, but so much of it depends on what you're specifically practicing.
Interesting stuff, thanks for that.