What's the real application of push hands/chi sao?

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 3:14pm

Originally Posted by RoninPimp

-And WTF with the editing of posts? That's a BITCH move...

Break a deal, face the wheel.

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 3:59pm

RoninP, You need to think of it this way. Basic introductory chi sau is an excersise for punching. It is just about what arms feel, so when they punch, they can respond via tactile feeling. Later on, it has a section just for kicks, and a section for escaping arm/elbow locks, throws, and sweeps (standing offcoarse).

Chi Sau in principle does not have grabing the arms or wrists, because when you grab, you are setting that arm up to be trapped. It does not mean we do not practice against being grabbed, but that we try to not grab ourselves.

This is beginner stuff. If I said BJJ did not have knee locks or leg hooks, because I only took the beginners class, I would be in error, becuase BJJ has all that later on. Same with Wing Chun. Don't judge it to hard by only the beginner programs.

Tai Chi Push hands on the other hand, has alot of grabs and throw like movements for beginners. Even the basic "punch" is more of a pushing throw.

and ofcoarse Wrestling is allready doing sensitivity training, so is BJJ. It has to be about feeling the enemys movements at that close of range. Grappling is a tactile skill. I agree with you that CHunners should not say "look, thats chi sau", becuase it is not. But in the same light, Grapplers should not dis on Tactile skill training in chi sau either. They can dis the crappy results, but not the fact that the chunners are trying to train tactile responces. In this way they are very much on the same page.

**RoninPimp** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 4:26pm

so when they punch, they can respond via tactile feeling.

-That bullshit will get you punched in the head.

They can dis the crappy results, but not the fact that the chunners are trying to train tactile responces.

-If they get crappy results from the the drill, then the drill sucks. Why still do it?

**RoninPimp** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 4:27pm

Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath

Break a deal, face the wheel.

-Huh?

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 7:57pm

Originally Posted by RoninPimp

-That bullshit will get you punched in the head.

So you recomend what? Visual reaction time? Just trading blows?

Originally Posted by RoninPimp

-If they get crappy results from the the drill, then the drill sucks. Why still do it?

Not everyone gets crappy results. The problem with the drill is when it becomes the whole deal, and not just a drill. Its not a method to use in a fight, its not a drill that works alone, without sparring and transfering the reflex over to punching with other exercises. Its only a part of the package.

I don't need to discuss the merits or pitfalls of chi sau so much on this thread, been done to death on Bullshido. My only point was specific. All of these arts are attempting to train tactile reflexs (feeling). Sometimes I get a good laugh when I hear BJJ/wrestling people diss Tactile reflex training, thats all.

**Mr.Mundane** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 9:18pm

RoninPimp, is that you in your avatar? It looks ugly as ****.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 10:07pm

[QUOTE=RoninPimp]

Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath

Break a deal, face the wheel.[/quote[-Huh?

Mad Max III : Beyond Thunderdome :tongue3: Shuma's using a classic phrase from that movie to refer to the ultimatum he gave DTT to provide references within sometime or he will bring his hammer down on him... or something like that.

**RoninPimp** · Posted On: 5/27/2006 11:36pm

Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

So you recomend what? Visual reaction time? Just trading blows?

Not everyone gets crappy results. The problem with the drill is when it becomes the whole deal, and not just a drill. Its not a method to use in a fight, its not a drill that works alone, without sparring and transfering the reflex over to punching with other exercises. Its only a part of the package.

I don't need to discuss the merits or pitfalls of chi sau so much on this thread, been done to death on Bullshido. My only point was specific. All of these arts are attempting to train tactile reflexs (feeling). Sometimes I get a good laugh when I hear BJJ/wrestling people diss Tactile reflex training, thats all.

-I recommend whatever a good boxing coach would recommend. What the hell does feel have to do with punching? Wing Chun guys spar? Let me guess, other Wing Chun guys with the same lame skills?