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  1. CanucKyokushin is offline

    He'll flip ya!

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    Mar 2005
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    Posted On:
    3/20/2006 11:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Not.....working

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tourettes
    Goshin is embarrassing and boring as hell to train. Every year there's a seminar here and anyone who isn't into the esoteric is warned to be busy that weekend.
    Does your Goshin jitsu involve hand and joint manipulations?Like crappy Aikido.Because believe it or not that's what we are taught in KK.
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    London, UK
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 7:24am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    Does your Goshin jitsu involve hand and joint manipulations?Like crappy Aikido.Because believe it or not that's what we are taught in KK.
    Surely when someone has their hand still pointing a gun at you is just about the best (and only) time to snag it for a wristlock? Don't you really need control of the hand if you're going to fight a guy with a pistol?
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 3/21/2006 7:26am at .
  3. Don Gwinn is offline
    Don Gwinn's Avatar

    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 9:11am

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Practical semi-auto pistols date from around 1900, when John Browning was bringing out new designs, along with Steyr, Luger and others. The Mauser C96 "broomhandle" (Han Solo's blaster) was named for 1896.

    A lot of gun defenses don't really differentiate between semi-autos and revolvers, though. The only practical difference between the two at arms' length is capacity and the theory surrounding stopping a second shot. With a revolver, you'd have to stop either the cylinder from turning or the hammer, so some people teach that you should try to get the web of your hand between the hammer and frame as it comes back. I don't see how that's practical, but it would stop the hammer from falling on the firing pin if you could manage it.

    Many semi-autos are striker fired and there's not much you can do about the first shot, but if you grip the slide firmly, you can usually keep it from cycling for the next shot. With a revolver, you can try to grip the cylinder to keep it from turning. The advantage of that is that it will stop the first shot if it works. The disadvantage is that you're gripping a small, rounded surface within a larger frame, so it's hard to have a strong grip, and if you let go, you haven't caused a malfunction. The gun will fire the next time the trigger is pulled. Even when you have your grip, the shooter's trigger finger has the mechanical advantage and is directly, mechanically connected to the cylinder, so he has a good chance of getting the gun to fire even if you do grip the cylinder.

    So basically, the short version is this:
    Semi-auto vs. revolver is less important than people tend to think, and the elements of gun disarms that get introduced to take advantage of facing one type or the other fill me with skepticism.
    *********************************************
  4. LolodesBois is offline

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    689

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 9:43am

    supporting member
     Style: Yoseikan Budo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't think gun hand vs gun defense would take that into acount, seems indeed silly to me as what you should be doing is get away from the firing line and control the guy.

    The only way I could see the revolver vs semi-auto thing is if you are in a crowded place and don't want the guy to be able to shoot another bullet but this is in a desparate surval situation so except for your offsprings you will not be thinking about other people anyway...
    Martial Arts is like sex, if you over complicate it with exotic sounding names, theories and principles, you end up fucking yourself in the ass. -Ronin69
  5. Don Gwinn is offline
    Don Gwinn's Avatar

    BJJ wins again!

    Join Date
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    Virden, IL
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    3,569

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 10:39am

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Practical semi-auto pistols date from around 1900, when John Browning was bringing out new designs, along with Steyr, Luger and others. The Mauser C96 "broomhandle" (Han Solo's blaster) was named for 1896.

    A lot of gun defenses don't really differentiate between semi-autos and revolvers, though. The only practical difference between the two at arms' length is capacity and the theory surrounding stopping a second shot. With a revolver, you'd have to stop either the cylinder from turning or the hammer, so some people teach that you should try to get the web of your hand between the hammer and frame as it comes back. I don't see how that's practical, but it would stop the hammer from falling on the firing pin if you could manage it.

    Many semi-autos are striker fired and there's not much you can do about the first shot, but if you grip the slide firmly, you can usually keep it from cycling for the next shot. With a revolver, you can try to grip the cylinder to keep it from turning. The advantage of that is that it will stop the first shot if it works. The disadvantage is that you're gripping a small, rounded surface within a larger frame, so it's hard to have a strong grip, and if you let go, you haven't caused a malfunction. The gun will fire the next time the trigger is pulled. Even when you have your grip, the shooter's trigger finger has the mechanical advantage and is directly, mechanically connected to the cylinder, so he has a good chance of getting the gun to fire even if you do grip the cylinder.

    So basically, the short version is this:
    Semi-auto vs. revolver is less important than people tend to think, and the elements of gun disarms that get introduced to take advantage of facing one type or the other fill me with skepticism.
    *********************************************
  6. Jib-Jab is offline

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 2:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: none

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was wondering if anyone has ever tried training gun defense against someone with something like a BB gun and been successful. It seems like this would be a good idea to see if the defense really works. If you just try it against someone with a fake gun it would be hard to tell if the person would be able to get a shot off in time. Also does anyone know of any real life situations where a gun defense worked?
  7. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 4:03pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is a link to the actual descriptions of the actual Kata set in Judo that contains the gun defense material.

    http://www.judoinfo.com/katagosh.htm

    Down right dangerous in terms of timing if you do try and use any of the gun related section. It might work as a "last ditch" effort where you've resigned yourself to getting killed. Which is a good thing since that is the most likely outcome of giving this a try.
  8. LolodesBois is offline

    Welterweight

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    Oct 2003
    Location
    Belgium
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    689

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 4:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Yoseikan Budo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jib-Jab
    I was wondering if anyone has ever tried training gun defense against someone with something like a BB gun and been successful. It seems like this would be a good idea to see if the defense really works. If you just try it against someone with a fake gun it would be hard to tell if the person would be able to get a shot off in time. Also does anyone know of any real life situations where a gun defense worked?
    I want to try that with my brother but for some reason our wives think we should 'grow up'....

    We use to shoot each other with .22 pellet guns and when my brother enter the room and said 'reflex' I knew a knife was coming at me...

    haa to be young and stupid again :-)
    Martial Arts is like sex, if you over complicate it with exotic sounding names, theories and principles, you end up fucking yourself in the ass. -Ronin69
  9. Mr. Jones is offline
    Mr. Jones's Avatar

    resident sick ****

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    Dec 2005
    Location
    Dallas
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    3,309

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 6:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Down right dangerous in terms of timing if you do try and use any of the gun related section. It might work as a "last ditch" effort where you've resigned yourself to getting killed. Which is a good thing since that is the most likely outcome of giving this a try.
    Just be lucky the Tomiki Goshin Jutsu doesn't have it.
  10. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 8:38pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kenji Tomiki was stuck in a very small cell for a very long time. He spent most of that time working on quick turn "Tenkan" style exercise to keep himself from going bonkers. Made him damned good at it, but unfortunately also made him sometimes think other people were as good as it as well.
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