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  1. Tenebrous is offline
    Tenebrous's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 3:55pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by erwin42
    I never claimed BJJ experience. I studied jiu-jitsu and freestyle grappling with Adrian Serrano for a short time.
    Jiu-jitsu is the Brazillian spelling. By spelling it that way you are indeed claiming bjj experience.

    How long is "a short time"?
  2. erwin42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:17pm


     Style: kung fu and jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrous
    Jiu-jitsu is the Brazillian spelling. By spelling it that way you are indeed claiming bjj experience.

    How long is "a short time"?
    I am sorry, I didn't mean to. On and off for 2 years. Work always got in the way. I didn't even get past white belt and I totally suck and I never did any BJJ.
  3. Snapp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:19pm


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrous
    Jiu-jitsu is the Brazillian spelling. By spelling it that way you are indeed claiming bjj experience.

    How long is "a short time"?
    Not true. I took Jiu Jitsu before, spelled like that. It was far from a BJJ class...
  4. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:21pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Erwin42,

    Glad to see you came back. I have been busy today so I have been unable to keep up with all the pages so pardon me if some of this has already been addressed.

    In your post that included the message from Seming Ma, Ma stated, "that Lefiti was already proficient in splashing hand, when he came to my grandfather." This statement is a reflection of Lefiti's profeciency in the system, not verification that it was a TCMA. Perhaps Mr. Ma meant this as verification, but that is not how it comes across.

    Later in the same message he says,"Splashing hand is not my specialty nor of our style; to my understanding, its concept based on the water slapping sound and motion." I think the important point here is "its concept based" this could be taken to mean that a single technique is based on water slapping sound and motion, which could mean that Lefiti took a single technique and developed it into a whole system. It could also mean that the system that Lefiti learned was based on the slapping water sound and motion. As you have pointed out in other messages it is open to interpretation.

    In a later post you mentioned that Lefiti was given a letter of introduction from the general to give to Ark wong, whom the general thought new the Splashing hands system, but Ark Wong knew nothing of the style. Why? Is it because the style was not real, or because, although he was familiar with it, he had not learned it personally. Again an instance where a statement could possibly mean 2 things. Also could you or someone else in the organization provide us with the name of the General in Taiwan who originally taught Lefiti?

    Unfortunately a lot of the parties that could help verify things for us have passed on which makes it difficult to verify things. As you said Chiao verified the system and was surprised that anyone still practiced it. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a true system. It is possible he was just being polite and didn't want to point out that what was being taught was not a true TCMA. I know that this sounds a little ridiculous but it is does happen, just look at ShaolinDo.

    They regularly go to the Shaolin Monastery in China and meet with the monks and give demonstrations but it is widely known that a lot of their forms do not come from Shaolin Gungfu, but the monks never tell them that, they just smile and pretend to be pleased and impressed and then laugh behind their backs.

    I have seen other styles that claimed lineage to Shaolin, that were obviously hybrids of some sort and they to could not verify their lineage claims, everything could only be traced back to the current organzational head. So I hope you can understand our skepticism. Furthermore just because we are skeptical does not necessarily mean that Splashing Hands is ineffective, it just means that we are questioning it's lineage claims. Some of those other styles that falsely claimed Shaolin lineage still produced capable fighters.
  5. meng_mao is offline
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    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by erwin42
    That's not exactly a convincing argument. You say it is crap. Okay, why? Okay, who are you, why are you an authority?
    My striking skills are enough where I look at that video and can say, I'm not afraid of getting hit by that.
  6. erwin42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:39pm


     Style: kung fu and jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin.74
    Erwin42,

    Glad to see you came back. I have been busy today so I have been unable to keep up with all the pages so pardon me if some of this has already been addressed.

    In your post that included the message from Seming Ma, Ma stated, "that Lefiti was already proficient in splashing hand, when he came to my grandfather." This statement is a reflection of Lefiti's profeciency in the system, not verification that it was a TCMA. Perhaps Mr. Ma meant this as verification, but that is not how it comes across.

    Later in the same message he says,"Splashing hand is not my specialty nor of our style; to my understanding, its concept based on the water slapping sound and motion." I think the important point here is "its concept based" this could be taken to mean that a single technique is based on water slapping sound and motion, which could mean that Lefiti took a single technique and developed it into a whole system. It could also mean that the system that Lefiti learned was based on the slapping water sound and motion. As you have pointed out in other messages it is open to interpretation.

    In a later post you mentioned that Lefiti was given a letter of introduction from the general to give to Ark wong, whom the general thought new the Splashing hands system, but Ark Wong knew nothing of the style. Why? Is it because the style was not real, or because, although he was familiar with it, he had not learned it personally. Again an instance where a statement could possibly mean 2 things. Also could you or someone else in the organization provide us with the name of the General in Taiwan who originally taught Lefiti?

    Unfortunately a lot of the parties that could help verify things for us have passed on which makes it difficult to verify things. As you said Chiao verified the system and was surprised that anyone still practiced it. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a true system. It is possible he was just being polite and didn't want to point out that what was being taught was not a true TCMA. I know that this sounds a little ridiculous but it is does happen, just look at ShaolinDo.

    They regularly go to the Shaolin Monastery in China and meet with the monks and give demonstrations but it is widely known that a lot of their forms do not come from Shaolin Gungfu, but the monks never tell them that, they just smile and pretend to be pleased and impressed and then laugh behind their backs.

    I have seen other styles that claimed lineage to Shaolin, that were obviously hybrids of some sort and they to could not verify their lineage claims, everything could only be traced back to the current organzational head. So I hope you can understand our skepticism. Furthermore just because we are skeptical does not necessarily mean that Splashing Hands is ineffective, it just means that we are questioning it's lineage claims. Some of those other styles that falsely claimed Shaolin lineage still produced capable fighters.
    These are all great points you make and you have a solid argument. You haven't convinced me my teacher is being deceptive, though. I don't have any more information to provide you on the subject and I am not interested in digging into this further because I am not a dedicated splashing hands student. I'd be curious as to what you find out, but I am choosing to leave it at that and spend my time doing other things.

    Now, there are those that are very devoted to this system and I will leave it to them to counter your points.
  7. erwin42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:40pm


     Style: kung fu and jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    My striking skills are enough where I look at that video and can say, I'm not afraid of getting hit by that.
    Okay. I've been hit by this guy though. I didn't like the feeling. If you don't have anything else to offer, I taped the UFC so I gotta go watch it now.
  8. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 4:58pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by erwin42
    These are all great points you make and you have a solid argument. You haven't convinced me my teacher is being deceptive, though. I don't have any more information to provide you on the subject and I am not interested in digging into this further because I am not a dedicated splashing hands student. I'd be curious as to what you find out, but I am choosing to leave it at that and spend my time doing other things.

    Now, there are those that are very devoted to this system and I will leave it to them to counter your points.
    Appreciate your stance on the issue an understand your desire to withdraw somewhat from the discussion. It would be better to have the questions answered by more dedicated students. Unfortunately the dedicated students that have shown up here have not been as open minded and cooperative as you and have often decided to quote rhetoric off of the website instead of providing sources to help us to validate their claims. Most have just flat out ignored our questions.

    So I will ask again. Can anyone provide us with the name of the General who taught Lefiti in Taiwan?

    Any information that I can gather from Chinese resources and with my connections in China I will post here. But it may take some time. I will be meeting with a TCMA instructor next week who is from China, the guy is 70 years old and very well connected in China. I will definitely ask him about this style and see if he has heard of it or knows anything about it.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 5:00pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrous
    Jiu-jitsu is the Brazillian spelling. By spelling it that way you are indeed claiming bjj experience.

    How long is "a short time"?
    Bullshit, Tenebrous.

    There were several spellings of jujutsu floating around since the introduction of the art to the West, before standardization of transliteration of Japanese to English became common place.

    Jiu-jitsu was actually a very common English term.

    By using this spelling, he is not claiming anything.
  10. Tenebrous is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2006 5:18pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Bullshit, Tenebrous.

    There were several spellings of jujutsu floating around since the introduction of the art to the West, before standardization of transliteration of Japanese to English became common place.

    Jiu-jitsu was actually a very common English term.

    By using this spelling, he is not claiming anything.
    I've heard it argued that way and I think I have a book that claims the jiu is solely a brazillian thing. I'll double check.

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