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  1. Bare Knuckled is offline

    痴驴子

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2007 2:48pm


     Style: Baguazhang/Xingyi /Huamen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seiuchin Kata was named for the great master, Seiuchin. Seiuchin means "lull in the storm" or "storm within a calm". Master Seiuchin lived in the 15th or 16th century and excelled in Southern Chinese Boxing. Legends tell stories of Master Seiuchin being so powerful with gouges that he could drive his fingers through a cow's side and pull strips of meat from the inside. There is also a story about his pulling out a man's heart.

    The Seiuchin Kata is known for the wide stances and for reinforced punches and blocks. The Kata is also used as strong emphasis on internal power and is sometimes used as a tension Kata, which is wrong according to a letter from Master Robert A. Trias, an authority of Okinawa Karate Masters Council (letter dated 7-28-82). The only Katas with loud tension type breathing are Tensho and Sanchin.

    The Kata was supposedly brought to Okinawa by Kanryo Higashionna. He had gone to China to study Chung Fu (Kung Fu) under Master Woo-Lin-Chin. He had studied in China between five and thirty-five years. Returning home, he developed NaHa-Te (Shorei-Ryu). His top student was Chojun Miyagi. Master Miyagi also studied in China. Together they developed Goju-Ryu Karate. Master Shimabuku learned the Kata directly from Master Chojun Miyagi.


    here's your proof have fun :) thanks for the engaging conversation I love this stuff you guys rock !
  2. Bare Knuckled is offline

    痴驴子

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2007 3:09pm


     Style: Baguazhang/Xingyi /Huamen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is for the buddhist martial art instructor, most people are not familiar with the wudang
    martial arts reffered too as Neijiquan and what happens with that is a lot of system where taken over seas to okinawa and a lot of japanese martial artist traveled too wu-dang mountain to learn I heir fe and I neir chi is based off of the wudang Taihequan which is golden bell and iron shirt training. Jin Zhong Zhao" is the Chinese name of Golden Bell Qigong. This series comes from the Song Dynasty from Tong Zhou. In the Ming period it was linked by Tao Shi Deng Kun Lun to WuDang (Tai He) Kung fu. This is one stage of Iron Body training - also known as the Goldern Bell . :)
  3. AAAhmed46 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 1:19am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sanchin was not developed by Miyagi ChojUn (I don't know who Chogun Miyagi is. Are you sure of that spelling?).

    As said before, there are several styles of Southern quanfa that use a Sanchin form, from 5 Ancestor Fist, to Hakka White Crane, to Southern Praying Mantis. The Okinawan kata Sanchin existed in Ryuei-ryu before Goju-ryu.

    As far as Goju-ryu's Sanchin, it was not developed by Miyagi Chojun, but rather, taught to him by his teacher, Higaonna Kanryo. It is likely to have originated in a Chinese man named Ru Ru Ko (an Okinawanization of his Chinese name), who is believed to have taught both Higaonna and Nakaima Norisato of Ryuei-ryu.

    I agree completely, there are like 1000 0000 different styles that have sanchin, some look similar to eachother, others look nothing alike.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 9:31pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    Seiuchin Kata was named for the great master, Seiuchin. Seiuchin means "lull in the storm" or "storm within a calm".
    Do you read Chinese characters? Because that is not a generally accepted translation.

    Seiunchin can be written with the following characters.

    制引戦 means "To control and pull combat". It has nothing to do with a lull or a calm in the storm.

    This is why I don't think any of the information you've provided is accurate. I have never come across any reference to a master named Seiunchin, nor is there any reference of any Okinawan karate practitioners speaking of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    Master Seiuchin lived in the 15th or 16th century and excelled in Southern Chinese Boxing. Legends tell stories of Master Seiuchin being so powerful with gouges that he could drive his fingers through a cow's side and pull strips of meat from the inside. There is also a story about his pulling out a man's heart.
    Where are you getting this from?

    What source?

    No history of Okinawan karate I have ever read has any reference to this person.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    He had gone to China to study Chung Fu (Kung Fu) under Master Woo-Lin-Chin.
    Chung fu?

    What language is that?

    Who says Chung fu?

    And again, I need a reference providing proof of this man Woo Lin Chin existing and that he was Kanryo Higaonna's teacher. The only references we have to any Chinese teachers of Higaonna's are Ryu Ryo Ko and Wan Shin Zan.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    He had studied in China between five and thirty-five years.
    Wrong.

    Higaonna was in China from 1876-1885. Some sources say 1886.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    here's your proof have fun
    Where?

    Where is your proof? Where are your citations?

    Seriously, are you just making all of this up or did someone tell you these things?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    thanks for the engaging conversation I love this stuff you guys rock !
    I would like to remind you that the History forum is for serious scholarship on the subject of martial arts history. If you cannot follow the rules, you can lose your privileges to post here.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 9:33pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    This is for the buddhist martial art instructor
    :angry2:

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    most people are not familiar with the wudang
    martial arts reffered too as Neijiquan and what happens with that is a lot of system where taken over seas to okinawa
    WHAT?

    There is no evidence of an Wudang martial arts ever coming to Okinawa.

    Seriously, where are you getting this stuff?
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 10:05pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Daruma. Interesting. I'll let E108 handle the Sanchin.

    Do your research. Daruma is not the basis of all Martial Arts at all.

    Yes, there is proof.
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 10:09pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Daruma is in my lineage for the Buddhism, and allegedly for the Marrow Washing (there's a billion & one marrow washing sets, which one he actually created, if he did at all, is unknown). There's no evidence of any of our actual martial techniques come from him.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 10:18pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    Daruma is in my lineage for the Buddhism, and allegedly for the Marrow Washing (there's a billion & one marrow washing sets, which one he actually created, if he did at all, is unknown). There's no evidence of any of our actual martial techniques come from him.
    Oh yes, I agree that he existed. I believe your linage and his influence. I no longer believe he had as huge an impact, if any at all, on direct Martial skills.
    Indirectly yes.
  9. Miguksaram is offline
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    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 7:48am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The Sanchin kata is based upon I neir chi ( or iron shirt training principals) most people forget that missionaries during the tong dynasty frequently visited okinawa and brought with it chinese martial arts which the okinawians learned and studied from too develop into their own martial discipline. The original branches are Nahate/tori-te/shori-te which utilized not only trapping and striking and grappling but also joint locks and chokes.
    Ok, first off when you say missionaries are you talking about religous people or are you using it in the terms of foreign visitor representing a country? Because the exchange of martial arts was done between visiting merchants from China, not priests or buddhist monks.

    Secondly it is Tomarite not Torite. Torite would just translate to Attacker Hand. Tomarite (which means Tomari Hand) was one of the 3 "styles" around. You mentioned the other two already; Shuri and Naha. They were all named after the regions they were developed in. This was also known as tode-jitsu (which was the forefather to karate-jitsu).


    The problem is that because there is so much myth regarding the ancient karate masters no one knows for sure who it was that devised the sanchin kata into karate in the first place. But it's premise is to develop concentration and focus to help harden the body to withstand strikes and blows. Unfortuantly a lot of karate-ka don't know how to properly utilize this technique because the proper breathing and movements have been changed from the original variation into something that just premotes a distinct set of postures that just help to focus and concentrate. The real principal of iron shirt training is to help promote health and vitality which is why the sanchin kata ( according to what I know is why it was implimented) as a way of preperation before training.
    Well it is highly agreed upon that the form was developed in Shaolin by Boddhirama as an exercise for his disciples. From what I have read about it, Sanchin is almost as generic as saying karate. There were many forms of Sanchin which has stemmed from the original version taught by boddhirama. Higaonna is credited for bringing a version of it from China to Okinawa. His teacher was Ryu Ryu Ko. It seems that the only mention of Woo Lin Chin is through the Isshin-ryu lineage where Higaonna was said to learn Seuinchin kata from him, which is different than Sanchin kata. I have yet to see any other reference to him. Ryu Ryu Ko was said to study at the Shaolin Temple was not a monk at the temple.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

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  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 3:01pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have never heard of any historical indication that Bodhidharma had anything to do with Sanchin. The Yi Jin Jing is not Sanchin.
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