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  1. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2007 12:12am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    THere are LOTS of southern chinese styles that use sanchin, some of them have almost no resemblance to each other, others do.

    So really, it's hard to tell exactly...what system does okinawan sanchin come from?

    Is it even relevant?

    Does goju-ryu sanchin have links to uechi-ryu sanchin?

    Do they draw influences from the same systems?
    Last edited by AAAhmed46; 6/04/2007 12:15am at .
  2. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2007 1:57am

    supporting member
     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I imagine there was a lot of information and influence flowing in every direction back in the day, more than some people think, but I don't know. I can't speak on joju-ryu or uechi-ryu, being an ignoramus on the subject, but I appreciate your comment. could you tell me, is Sanchin in Karate primarily for iron body training?

    RESPECT
  3. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2007 2:56pm


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it is for goju-ryu, though most use it as an exercise to build strength, and foundation.

    Uechi-ryu sanchin is a bit different, no dynamic tension, though very similar.
  4. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 8:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Southern Short Fist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What are acceptable sources for this site? Personally, I don't trust information simply because it is in print. I have seen some stupid things written in martial arts magazines/books/forums. I wouldn't use wikipedia as a source, however, I have seen way worse sources accepted as legitimate in relation to MA.

    So, what is a good source? As a historian, primary source information, from people directly involved in events, is seen as the purest form of information.

    What books would be considered legitimate?
    What sites/internet sources would be accepted as legitimate?
    When would a primary source (e.g., an individual directly involved with a style/event) be accepted as legitimate?

    An excellent example of how 'legitimate' information gets contaminated is the history of the Pai Lum. Anthing written about it is crap. Yet thousands of people involved in the style accept the made up history as legitimate.

    There is a saying, history is written by the winners. Certainly, textbooks in Germany would look a little different if Hitler had won. Unfortunatly history is sometimes written by opportunists and idiots. Just because someone put it in a book doesn't make it more legitimate then a trustworthy primary source.

    In martial arts, I would always believe a trustworthy teacher over the sports/martial arts section at Indigo Books. The ultimate judge of what is true should always be common sense, a good sense of histroy, and your gut.
  5. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 10:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    What are acceptable sources for this site? Personally, I don't trust information simply because it is in print. I have seen some stupid things written in martial arts magazines/books/forums. I wouldn't use wikipedia as a source, however, I have seen way worse sources accepted as legitimate in relation to MA.

    So, what is a good source? As a historian, primary source information, from people directly involved in events, is seen as the purest form of information.
    Though it would be great to get information directly from the people involved in the events, very few of us are privy to those types of connections. Plus, as time moves on, many of those sources are slowly disappearing.

    What books would be considered legitimate?
    What sites/internet sources would be accepted as legitimate?
    When would a primary source (e.g., an individual directly involved with a style/event) be accepted as legitimate?
    What I have learned to do is check several different sources and look for any common information they may have. For KMA, I did this plus looked into actual Korean history as well. This helped a lot simply because events that were written about in MA publications seemed virtually impossible to happen due to actual Korean history that was taken place at the time.

    If you have a source that is directly involved in with the style/event then that would be a nice beginning, but you still have to go deeper into what happened in order to verify what they are telling you.

    An excellent example of how 'legitimate' information gets contaminated is the history of the Pai Lum. Anthing written about it is crap. Yet thousands of people involved in the style accept the made up history as legitimate....


    In martial arts, I would always believe a trustworthy teacher over the sports/martial arts section at Indigo Books. The ultimate judge of what is true should always be common sense, a good sense of histroy, and your gut.
    You sort of contradict yourself here. The example of Pai Lum is a good one. People involved accept the made up history. So even if your instructor is trustworthy, how can you trust what he is telling you if he feels that the history is correct. We would like to trust our instructors on what they tell us, but they may only be spitting out what they have been told by their instructors.

    You are correct that the ultimate judge combines common sense, with knowledge.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

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    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
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    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
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    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Southern Short Fist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello Miguksaram. I like your answers, they are reasonable.
    I have done a fair bit of research into Japanese martial arts. I've read many books and as a history teacher, I find martial arts histroy particularly difficult to sift through. As difficult as it is to sift through the different accounts, it is more difficult to discuss this topic. People who study martial arts put alot of effort into it, and because of this, it is very close to their hearts. Alot of testosterone gets pumpmed up, and people are often more interested in proveing that they are right, and less interested in discussing the topic at hand.
    As far as Japanese martial arts go, I've spent time in Okinawa at the Hombu dojo studying with Maeitatsu Yagi, the son of the first disciple of Chogun Miyagi. I take the information from their dojo over anything I have read in any north american book. I someone could produce a text that trumps any firtshand information that I may have heard, I'll accept it.
    As for the Pai Lum, I guess that it comes down to knowing my teacher. There are people that are full of ****, but he is not one of them. He has nothing to gain by lying, and if he is telling the truth, then the account is valid. His history leaves no room for ambiguity---it could only be false by account of a direct lie. This is a case where you look at the quality of the martial art, the person, and you make a decision on what you believe. I've seen senior American Pai Lum students under Pai when he was still alive on tape. I was not impressed. I've seen Pai on tape, and I've seen my teacher on tape, and I've seen his students. These people are impressive. I'm not the best person to argue this point, maybe I shouldn't even be discussing it at all, however from my point of view it is a good example of how bullshit can become history.
    I know that word of mouth is a dangerous thing. But putting it in print (or yelling loudly about it) doesn't make it true.
  7. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 6:56pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Southern Short Fist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for Sanchin, it was developed by Chogun Miyagi after he went to southern china and spent some time learning Chi-gun. I've never heard what school it was in particular in China. The purpose was conditioning before the days of weights, chi breathing, developing power, and creating awareness of the entire muscle network of the body.
    I spent alot of time training Sanchin in my early days, and it gave me a very specific skill set, but it also detracted a great deal from other aspects of my training. While it makes you very solid and trains the 'wood' aspect of your training, I feel that it limits other areas, by creating stiffness, rigidity, and static.
    I am working on loosening up. Getting better at it. But I think that my early Okinawan training, as good as it has been for conditioning, has limited me in other ways.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 1:28am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sanchin was not developed by Miyagi ChojUn (I don't know who Chogun Miyagi is. Are you sure of that spelling?).

    As said before, there are several styles of Southern quanfa that use a Sanchin form, from 5 Ancestor Fist, to Hakka White Crane, to Southern Praying Mantis. The Okinawan kata Sanchin existed in Ryuei-ryu before Goju-ryu.

    As far as Goju-ryu's Sanchin, it was not developed by Miyagi Chojun, but rather, taught to him by his teacher, Higaonna Kanryo. It is likely to have originated in a Chinese man named Ru Ru Ko (an Okinawanization of his Chinese name), who is believed to have taught both Higaonna and Nakaima Norisato of Ryuei-ryu.
  9. Bare Knuckled is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 3:54am


     Style: Baguazhang/Xingyi /Huamen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    First Okinawians frequent visitation from china

    The Sanchin kata is based upon I neir chi ( or iron shirt training principals) most people forget that missionaries during the tong dynasty frequently visited okinawa and brought with it chinese martial arts which the okinawians learned and studied from too develop into their own martial discipline. The original branches are Nahate/tori-te/shori-te which utilized not only trapping and striking and grappling but also joint locks and chokes. The problem is that because there is so much myth regarding the ancient karate masters no one knows for sure who it was that devised the sanchin kata into karate in the first place. But it's premise is to develop concentration and focus to help harden the body to withstand strikes and blows. Unfortuantly a lot of karate-ka don't know how to properly utilize this technique
    because the proper breathing and movements have been changed from the original variation into something that just premotes a distinct set of postures that just help to focus and concentrate. The real principal of iron shirt training is to help promote health and vitality which is why the sanchin kata ( according to what I know is why it was implimented) as a way of preperation before training.








    Sanchin Kata





    KATA







    TREE








    Daruma






    Woo Lin Chin





    Higashionna




    Miayagi




    Tatsuo-






    Shimbuku







    The Sanchin kata emphasis slow powerful techniques with



    breathing (ubuki) and deep concentration. It is the oldest



    kata still taught today and has winding history.


    When demonstrated properly it is impressive and rewarding.


    A Chinese monk named Hui Meng who lived in the later part

    of the ming dynasty ( 1368-1644 A.D ), wrote that " The lungs

    are reseviors of air and air is the lord of strength. Who ever

    speaks strength must known air" He was right to the point .

    These methods of obtaining correct breathing techniques

    were spread from china to okinawa and became the heart

    of all Karate styles.


    The Sanchin kata can be traced back to the T'ang (Tong)

    dynasty where a revolutionary art of self defense called

    Shaolin Chuan Fa begain to catch on with the military and

    aristoricratic classes of china.



    Woo Lin Chin was Kanryu's teacher a daoist monk

    and master of martial arts and Kanryu adopted to his

    small village of naha. and drilled his students in the daoist

    breath method and devised it as the Sanchin kata ( or three

    little conflicts)

    The man responsible for bringing the Sanchin kata to

    okinawa is Kanryu Higashionna (1851-1915) who later on

    taught it too Chojun Miyagi whas Kanryu's number one

    student and then passed it onto Shimbuku.
    Last edited by Bare Knuckled; 6/27/2007 4:28am at .
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 11:34pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The Sanchin kata is based upon I neir chi ( or iron shirt training principals)
    Which Sanchin kata?

    There are several Sanchin kata, not to mention Samchien forms in Southern Chinese MA.

    So which one are you talking about?

    As far as I neir chi...what the does that mean? Do you have the Chinese characters for that, because it doesn't look like it has anything to do with Iron Shirt.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The original branches are Nahate/tori-te/shori-te
    Torite was not an original branch of karate.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    which utilized not only trapping and striking and grappling but also joint locks and chokes.
    They grapple AND use joint locks & chokes?

    Wow.

    That's redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The problem is that because there is so much myth regarding the ancient karate masters no one knows for sure who it was that devised the sanchin kata into karate in the first place.
    Yes we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    But it's premise is to develop concentration and focus to help harden the body to withstand strikes and blows.
    This is not true of every style of Sanchin.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The real principal of iron shirt training is to help promote health and vitality which is why the sanchin kata ( according to what I know is why it was implimented) as a way of preperation before training.
    Citations, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    Sanchin Kata





    KATA







    TREE








    Daruma






    Woo Lin Chin





    Higashionna




    Miayagi




    Tatsuo-






    Shimbuku







    What is this supposed to be? A lineage chart for Sanchin? Why are you referencing Daruma? Do you have any references for this Woo Lin Chin person, because he comes up in no history I have ever read from any noted scholar.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The Sanchin kata emphasis slow powerful techniques with breathing (ubuki) and deep concentration.
    Ubuki?

    Do you mean Ibuki?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    It is the oldest kata still taught today and has winding history.
    Oldest?

    Which version?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The Sanchin kata can be traced back to the T'ang (Tong) dynasty where a revolutionary art of self defense called Shaolin Chuan Fa begain to catch on with the military and aristoricratic classes of china.
    Uh...what?!?

    Got proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    Woo Lin Chin was Kanryu's teacher a daoist monk and master of martial arts and Kanryu adopted to his small village of naha. and drilled his students in the daoist breath method and devised it as the Sanchin kata (or three little conflicts)
    Again, you need to provide proof. I need citations from you, in order to accept this claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshinmaster
    The man responsible for bringing the Sanchin kata to okinawa is Kanryu Higashionna (1851-1915) who later on taught it too Chojun Miyagi whas Kanryu's number one student and then passed it onto Shimbuku.
    Uh...what?

    First off, you've already said that no one knows who "devised" Sanchin into karate. So now you've contradicted yourself. Secondly, you've completely disregarded Norisato Nakaima.

    Seriously dude, where the hell are you getting this stuff?
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