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  1. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2007 6:31am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An senior Okinawan student at Hombu Dojo (the Home dojo of Meibukan Gojuryu) in Naha.
    I understand that that does not make it true, however, I am inclined to believe someone in the culture more readily then many of the books that I have read. To me, this individual was more of a primary resource then many of the books that I have read.

    I am more interested in the truth though, and if you can give me reliable information on this topic (the origin of Karate weapons), I would like to see it. Certainly I have seen posts that look simmilar to sai in Asia... Is it so difficult to believe that the origin of some weapons could be tools?

    To me it seems almost a moot point. How are we supposed to determine what the original purpose of these weapons was hundreds of years ago? Certainly they were not weapons that were used by professional armies or soldiers.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2007 7:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    An senior Okinawan student at Hombu Dojo (the Home dojo of Meibukan Gojuryu) in Naha. I understand that that does not make it true, however, I am inclined to believe someone in the culture more readily then many of the books that I have read. To me, this individual was more of a primary resource then many of the books that I have read.
    No, in fact it does not make it true, as you said, the mythology has spread.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    I am more interested in the truth though, and if you can give me reliable information on this topic (the origin of Karate weapons), I would like to see it.
    Five Ancestor Fist uses a weapon called a Cha or Chai depending on whether or not you're using Cantonese or Mandarin. In Korean, it is called a Chae. The character used, 釵, also refers to a hairpin, given the similarity of shape.

    If the sai is a farming implement, why does no one use it for farming?

    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    Certainly I have seen posts that look simmilar to sai in Asia... Is it so difficult to believe that the origin of some weapons could be tools?
    You've seen what? Posts? Clarify.

    Don't hold on to mythology when there is no evidence for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    To me it seems almost a moot point. How are we supposed to determine what the original purpose of these weapons was hundreds of years ago? Certainly they were not weapons that were used by professional armies or soldiers.
    I see. You cannot support your argument, so you seek to dismiss the subject all together?

    Look into hoplology.
  3. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2007 4:31pm

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    No, I don't seek to dismiss it altogether. Nor do I feel like getting hostile over the subject. It may be a myth. I do not however think that seeing it in a book makes it true or not. Someone could easilly have heard the myth and put it in a book as a fact. That the weapons were used in other parts of Asia does not mean that they were not first used as tools. They could have been tools that were also used as weapons in China, or the use of them as weapons in Okinawa could have been transmitted elsewhere. Finding a reliable primary source on the subject would be next to impossible.

    While in Korea, I saw garden posts stuck in the ground that were very simmilar to Sai. Simmilar enough that you could do a form with them.

    I see that it is important to have written sources to back up any ideas on this thread. I'm sorry for bringing up other ideas and will limit future posts to things directly from books or not at all.
  4. demonhanzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 1:30am

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    Is it so difficult to believe that the origin of some weapons could be tools?


    I could be wrong but appearantly the european wheat thresher(?) developed into a mace, not enterly sure about that and have to check facts but it would seem that farm tools could double as weapons,and later generations could develope them into the weapons that we recognize today.
  5. demonhanzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 1:38am

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    Sorry I used some incorrect information, instead of the mace consider the flail or mornining star, I found this stub on wikipedia, though it itself does not contain any sources it does not seem that far fetched I could be wrong Anyways heres the link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_%28weapon%29
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 10:56am

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    Quote Originally Posted by demonhanzo
    Is it so difficult to believe that the origin of some weapons could be tools?
    When there is evidence to the contrary...yes!
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 10:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by demonhanzo
    Sorry I used some incorrect information, instead of the mace consider the flail or mornining star, I found this stub on wikipedia, though it itself does not contain any sources it does not seem that far fetched I could be wrong Anyways heres the link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_%28weapon%29
    This is completely irrelevant to the origination of Okinawan kobujutsu weapons.

    Stop using wikipedia as a source.
  8. demonhanzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 2:50pm

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    I agree that it may not be relevant to these specific Okinawan weapons, however it was asked if it was difficult to believe that some weapons orgins were farm tools. In the history of all the world it is not that difficult to believe. I did not state that I supported the theory Kobujutsu weapons started out as farming tools. Honestly I could care less. My pointwas that someweapons do appear to have origins as farming tools.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 3:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by demonhanzo
    I agree that it may not be relevant to these specific Okinawan weapons, however it was asked if it was difficult to believe that some weapons orgins were farm tools. In the history of all the world it is not that difficult to believe. I did not state that I supported the theory Kobujutsu weapons started out as farming tools. Honestly I could care less. My pointwas that someweapons do appear to have origins as farming tools.
    WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION OF KOBUDO, WHICH IS THE TOPIC AT HAND.

    Stop trying to impress people with "research" that you gleaned from wikipedia. Do not troll the history forum and try to force thread drift.
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2007 4:00pm

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    I read that the sanchin breathing (and iron body)exercises from karate, were incorporated from the Sam Chien(three wars) tension form in 5 ancestor fist fung fu. Anyone know anything about it? I'm interested to learn. From what I've seen, the stances and movements and conceptual chanelling of chi (starting with the hanging horse stance) are closely related.
    any thoughts?
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