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  1. hockey chick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 5:12pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am a firefighter paramedic, I deal with the victims day in and day out. I think I have a pretty good idea how the criminal mind works. You're right, there is no way to predict, but struggling, fighting back, is not worth it. Give them what they want and try to pick up the pieces. If a psychopath wants to kill you, public, private, here, there, he will, no matter what you say or do.
  2. RellBound is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 6:46pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep got to agree. Hand over your keys, wallet, watch and whatever else tickles their fancy. A $14 wallet full of plastic and cash is not worth getting an appendectomy by Dr. Feelgood.

    The Oldschool is here....and I'm going to Rell in a Randbasket!
  3. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 8:09pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think this thread has shown the limits to all of our training, regardless of rank, experience or style. We can all be killed, or worse, by some untrained punk willing to do the things we are unwilling to do. Even if you train full contact with no holds barred, you are still shielded from the real world.

    On topic, I think what Sheol is trying to say is that if you aren't dealing with a psychopath and just some thug then giving him what he wants may encourage him to do more. Psychopaths by definition don't play by the same rules as the majority of people, and most common criminals don't want to get caught.
  4. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 8:16pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You could go the Fred Sanfred route and fake a heart attack too. Heh. "lizbeth, I'm commin ta join ya" :)

    This was a good conversation. I agree that if a guy will kill you in public then he will kill you in private. You just have to keep a cool head and think. Sometimes you might even be able to talk your way out of something. Criminals can be reasonable. Psychos, well then you might want to take a risk.
    ---

    Lets get specific about the earlier topic dealing with targets and pressure points and vital areas and all that .. what do you guys know about specific targets? Here are some examples of targets many self-defense gurus preach about. What stories do you have about them?
    :::

    * The temple - The artery in the depression of temple cavity.

    This target is regarded a lethal target by many. There were occasions when boxers were killed with a shot to the temple back when gloves were not as padded. It is said that a good shot to this artery from a small sharp bone like your middle knuckle can cause the muscles around the artery to tense up and rupture it - resulting in death - if you are not promptly rushed to an emergency room.

    A blunted blow to the general area won't have the same effect. Also, it isn't a guarantee. Most temple shots (as we have seen in the UFC) merely result in a KO or a dissoriented, staggering opponant. Sometimes it can just hurt like crap.

    My experience: though I have been hit in the temple a lot in practice - in the fights I have been frontal attacks were the first thing thrown and I had my defenses up before any attacks to the side of the head happened.

    Once though, at work I rose up really fast and rammed my temple into the corner of a heavy hoist crane. It hurt like hell and I saw spots for about 15 minutes but it didn't knock me out or kill me - it did swell up and i had to sit down for a few minutes. Being at work I sat down a little longer to catch a break. :)

    * The corotid artery - artery on either side of the neck. Supplies oxygen to the brain.

    This large artery on the side of the neck is often used in chokes. Sealing the artery can deprive the brain of oxygen and result in a guy passing out if he doesn't pass out first. This artery can also be subject to strikes that can stop the blood flow momentarily resulting in a KO.

    My experience: I have never been mean enough to throw a hook punch or a cross to the neck fearing damage to the spine. A chop is supposed to do just fine.

    I have struck myself in this area in practice (lighter than I would in a fight) just to see how it would effect me and it has always resulted in at least a really good stun that causes the eyes to close and targets to the head to be open for attack.

    * The jaw - The famed tripple warmer Dim Mak point is just under the jaw. Pressure points people say even a slap here will KO a guy.

    Boxers and NHB fighters KO eachother all the time with hard strikes to the jaw, chin or side of the head near the ear.

    My experience: I went to my friend's school with him for a while. One of Dillman's students named Clark was teaching at the YMCA. I wanted to see what pressure points was all about. The guy said my nervous system was set up dofferent - that it is rare but my body make-up was different so pressure points didn't work as well on me.. I think I just wan't as duped as the other people, including the doctor who was seemingly spellbound by Clark.

    He would twist my wrist, hit my arm at a 45 degree angle and then tap my jaw and I was supposed to go down. It didn't have any effect. Nothing he did had any effect. finally in frustration he tried to demonstrate a basic wrist throw on me but I just rolled and got up to face him in a crouched stance - three times in a row. He said, well you can see how it would work if I did it really fast - I can't do it fast or it will rip the ligaments in your arm from the bone. My embarrassed friend explained that I was a wrestler.

    NOTE: I do believe that wrist lock works if you know how to use it well. Fold and twist the wrist. Its basic stuff.

    * The groin - The famed ball-sack of the male of our species.

    some guys say that if you kick them in the balls they get an adrenolyne rush and they'll tear you apart - this I have yet to see actually happen.

    I have been kicked in the balls. It hurts. It didn't render me helpless or defenseless but I wouldn't give chace if somebody stuck me there. I have kicked guys in the balls. It sent them to the ground most of the time or at least set them up to be shoved there. When a guy is kicked in the balls his knees buckle a little and he hunches over with his butt sticking out. His head and neck extend - he is vulnerable. (Watch for stretched out pants that can be a shield)

    * The throat - the esophegus, jugular vein, trachea, etc.

    Severe coughing and watery eyes is usually the response to a decent strike to the throat. A really strong strike can result in the muscles tensing up and loss of breath or ability to breath for a moment. You aren't going to crush the windpipe or kill him unless you hit him with a pipe. Usually the mouth opens so watch out for getting your fist cut up on those teeth if you follow-up with a straight punch. A shot to the throat can set up low targets because it tends to make a guy draw back his upper body a little.

    * The spine - The backbone and back of the neck.

    Breaking the neck can paralyse or kill someone instantly. It takes a strong kick or strike to do this. There are plenty of documented cases of round kicks or chops to the neck that have resulted in instant death. I've never done it myself but I've heard the stories.

    * The knee - The side or front of the extended joint of the knee.

    People say its easy to break. Yea, if its locked or upright maybe - but not on a crouched enemy who doesn't have his leg planted. You have to make him do that - you can't lead with a shot to the knee on an experienced attacker. Setting it up high and then going low to the klnee is basic stuff. Bruce Lee used an attack in sparring where he'd shoot in with a punch and a kick to the knee or shin simotaneously.

    Me, I have taken guys down using the knee, kicked them down from the ground while sitting on my butt in a sit-out position, kicked guys in the knee less than hard enough to break it - they usually quit the fight right then unless they are really mad. Tank Abbot quit a fight in the UFC because of kicks to the knee.

    Breaking it though, you'd have to land a really solid strike at just the exact moment to a planted leg and not slip off to the side to break the knee. Leg trapping is not legal in most any event. I usually go to the thigh with that - if the guy isn't huge it will hurt enough - if he is it will still stop him in his tracks.

    I used stop kicks to the thigh to keep a 6 foot 4 and 250# guy back 8 times in a row. It didn't hurt him though. I should have gone to the knee but I was just trying to control the situation. Besides, the thigh is a larger target so it was more of a sure thing.

    I don't recommend attacking the knee with a front stamp from standing, angle it and turn it into a sidekick so you have more to strike with - on the ground a front stamp is fine. Standing, most people use round kicks.

    I don't think frontal attacks on the knee are legal but maybe I am wrong. You really have to know how to do this by switching your guard on a rear leg kick on his advance - because if you aren't accurate you will be vulnerable if you advance at all - keep your weight over your legs - the only guys I've seen do it right are Muay Thai guys.
    ---


    >> To be bound by traditional martial art style or styles is the way of the mindless, enslaved martial artist, but to be inspired by the traditional martial art and to achieve further heights is the way of genius. - Bruce Lee
  5. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 12:14pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Techniques belong in a new thread, but "yes" to 9chambers, regarding pressure points and such.

    I believe in the more scientific analysis of "vital points" used in the 'West'. The 'faith' system of pressure points is too absurd. This isn't to say that there isn't SOME practical stuff. The problem is the sheer amount of TRASH that comes along with it. Again, the mantra of pressure point 'true-believers' is that it can't be tested.... That's religion, not science.

    I've seen those pressure points being taught in stick-fighting for LEO-type applications... using batons to subdue the opponent, rather than going for damage. I saw the same "reliable" effect that cooperation makes... and stood out like a sore thumb while the instructor tried to make it work on me. Ultimately, it was mechanical compliance, at full force, rather than any pressure point that caused me to move over... a resisting criminal, someone wanting to inflict harm, would have fought on. 'MAYBE' it was my shoulders, from my time as a power-lifter, but the principle is the same. DON'T rely on pressure-point stuff.

    Groin-shots. Yes, I've heard people say that they can take them... and I have seen big guys go down, but I have also seen people fight with almost no reaction to the tactic. It's about when the shot was taken and the circumstance. If it's a pre-emptive strike, then the target probably isn't under the influence of adrenaline and endorphins. It's also part mindset. How many of you have been focused on doing something... to the point that you don't notice that you have been injured? That's part of the mindset.
  6. albert is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 12:50pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    about martial science..

    most people on these forums are concerned with the self-defense focus of the martial arts. however, as Marc MacYoung would tell you, not all martial arts equal self defense. there are other focuses in the MAs that have evolved over time. for example, TKD tends to focus on sport fighting. Tai chi is geared toward spiritual ends. no particular focus is superior to another, it just depends on the person's needs.



    Edited by - albert on August 21 2002 16:39:44
  7. Groganer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 1:07pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Groin shots are effective only if the person has never taken a shot there before. I'll recount a personal story. A good friend of mine and I are both wrestlers. We wrestled our whole lives (well, it seems that way, anyway). He and I were both undefeated our Sr. years in high school, and we always stalemated when we wrestled. Well, we decided we'd do "one take down for bragging rights that would last the rest of our lives".

    Needless to say, neither of us wanted to give that up. So, about 10 minutes into it, I got him in a single leg, and was working my way up his body. I didn't have controll yet, so it was still anybody's game. He did the only thing he could do - reached up and grabbed my sack. Now, we're not talking about a gentle tug that you like your girlfriend to do on you, we're talking about a "I'm gonna rip your nads off and show them to you" grip. This lasted for maybe 30 seconds, while I completed the take down.

    The point is, yes, it hurt like a son of a bitch, but I was fighting for something, and I would not give it up. The same thing is going to be true of a seasoned attacker that really wants to hurt you. They are fighting for something. The nuts, while they're painful, are not vital to your survival (they are vital to your offspring, however...). So, while I say kicking the nuts is a great set up, it's not going to end a fight.
  8. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 6:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, it won't necessarily end a fight but it will give you an edge. Some people can block any pain out of their mind for a short time - people have even lifted cars up off of other people when their life was on the line - but I don't see guys turning into the incredible hulk when they get nailed in the sack too often .. they get more desperate maybe and try their best to survive.
    But if they let go of your arm and you run off after that and they just wanted your wallet then they aren't going to chase you. The person being attacked is more likely to keep fighting after a nutcracker.

    Most guys wear a cup while wrestling - how did he literally grab your nuts? Our coach taught the nut smack technique. Even with a cup on you can get a guy's attention by slapping them from behind while on the ground.

    I don't believe your story. There is rarely a stalemate in an actual wrestling match. To say you did this consistantly is odd - maybe you just mean it as a figure of speech. I also doubt that your good friend really pulled as hard on your nuts as someone who would want to hurt you. Aslo, if that is the only thing he could do against a single-leg takedown then how was he undefeated all year? I don't buy it.

    The nuts aren't an instant fight winner by any means - but it always has an effect if you actually land it. Your ONE experience doesn't make you an expert on nutsacks.

    The problem I see is that a lot of times a guy will twist and the kick will partly hit his leg or he will hunch back and someone who hasn't been taught to follow through the target will lose momentum, or he will close his legs a little .. stopping you from reaching the target head on, or his jeans will be stretched out and act as a shield.. there are a lot of factors.

    The low abdomen between the hips is a better target - the abdominal wall can even be ruptured by a swift kick - in other words, hit him in the nuts straight on or downward, not upward from the bottom. Its not the actual balls you are attacking but the abdomen behind them.

    >> To be bound by traditional martial art style or styles is the way of the mindless, enslaved martial artist, but to be inspired by the traditional martial art and to achieve further heights is the way of genius. - Bruce Lee
  9. elipson is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 7:22pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been hit in several "pressure points" before, so I know many of them work. I'm not talking the Dim Mak Bullcrap, but stuff like the corotid artery that 9chambers mentioned works awesome. I know it as the Brachial Plexus Origin and my school teaches it as a target more than any other (except the groin). It's actually classified as a nerve center, and I have no doubt you could knock somone out with it just from my own experience getting hit there. And it fricken hurts too!! Another major nerve center is on the outside of the leg about 6 inches above the knee (lateral femorral), MT guys should know all about this, its why kicks to the leg hurt so much! I've personally been kocked to my knees by this "pressure point" and I've also knocked down several big guys with it. It won't end a fight, but it will mess up your leg for a while. There's a company called Pressure Point Control Tactics (www.ppct.com) that teaches these techniques to police officers and security guards as a "humane" way of dealing with uncooperative subjects. It's based on medical/scientific research and is recognized across north america.

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi
  10. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2002 8:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pepper spray is one of the most painful weapons to be sprayed with with (in the eye(s)) i.e. it's extremely effective. I haven't been sprayed but have seen people being sprayed and they just drop to the floor, can barely breath (saw a demonstartion on a police officer on the t.v and on a type of reality MTV program ere the guy said that the pepper spray was by far the most painful weapon at of the ones tested.)

    A Gun (if that's possible) would be an obvious choice of selfdefence.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
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