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  1. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 9:37am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What did the individuals who coined the term "martial art" think of when they came up with it? Did they think of gi clothed fighters tussling on a mat or trunk-wearing fighters in a ring? I hope not, because almost everything we see isn't "an art suitable for war".

    One of my common musings has been about the lack of science in the martial arts. It has always disturbed me that what passes as the martial arts is so often full of dogma which assumes much, but never proves anything (the too dangerous to practice, excuse). I have even seen the EXCUSE that it's a "martial art, not a martial science"! The focus of a martial art really is about killing, maiming, or otherwise "neutralizing" the enemy, isn't it? This means that we should study the human body for weak points/vitals. Not a new practice, right? Yet, in this day and age, it's hard to find info on it. Why? The Greeks studied the human body for that purpose, in addition to medicine. The Romans, Italians, and Spaniards did the same. The Chinese are famous for it. Yet, if you look for the information today, all you find are Dim Mak or Chin Na references with all of the fairy tales that come with it. There's some good information but a lot of nonsense to wade through. Ultimately, if you want accurate, unbiased information, you have to go to medical journals. WHY? The doctor's purpose is to treat somebody, so he needs the info. The purpose of the martial arts is to hurt somebody, so why isn't the information there for the martial artist? There's more to taking out the human body than kidney shots, neck strikes, and groin kicks.

    What about the science of combat method itself? The Spaniards had Destreza prior to the 1500's which used complicated, but scientifically based theories about movement, attack, and defense to establish proper, very simple, and effective movement, strikes, and parries. It served them well but disappeared after the 1800's with the gradual death of the blade in favor of the firearm. There are only so many ways a man can move and anecedotes about real-life fights share so much in common, regarding defensive and offensive movements (usually that the best defense IS a good offense). It's all very pretty to see complicated techniques, but simplicity is inevitably the victor, this too is a common theme. Science and reasoning is preferable to mysticism and dogma in the all of the industries of the world, except religion and martial arts. This is both disturbing and frustrating for individuals looking at the martial arts for what it was originally for: non-sport combat.

    Perhaps it is best to call what I am looking for as MARTIAL SCIENCE, not the MARTIAL ARTS. I would like to hear what you guys really think about this, particularly those of you that work in life-threatening occupations.
  2. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 10:33am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A few months ago, I had a sad experience while I was on my way to Laredo, Texas for some training with Maitre Paturel and Professeur Buitron. Deciding to call a cab to take me to the terminal, I was picked up at home by a female taxicab driver. I'm not a talkative person by nature, so I only gave her directions and then shut up. About half-way there, she tried to start up a conversation by asking about my cane (Asia knows why I have one). I explained to her that I hurt my leg. End of discussion, so I thought. A little bit later, she asks me if I know anything about martial arts. (Strangely enough, when you look Asian, you get these questions.) I asked her why she was asking and then she responded that she wanted to learn self-defense. THIS, as you might guess, spurred my interest. I ask her why she believes that she needs it, asking whether it was the area that she lives in or the places that she goes. She told me that it was because of her job.

    I hadn't really thought of cab-driving as being a life-threatening occupation, though after she said it, I knew why. Apparently, she had been assaulted on no less than FOUR occasions in only TWO MONTHS. Robbery was a motive every time, but two of them also involved attempted rape. Two involved guns and two involved knives. My first recommendation was that she change careers, but she was committed in her leasing contract for her cab and couldn't see a way to get out. I then truthfully explained what I did, what I studied, and told her that I honestly couldn't recommend a SINGLE martial art for her situation.

    Think about this. She has an exposed profile as a victim. Any potential assailant has PLANNED to attacker her. She works in a confined space. Due to union things, she ends up with graveyard shift pickups. On top of it all, she is a woman and, therefore, a preferred victim.

    In the end, I simply explained to her the situation that she was in. I pointed out the danger of cooperating with attackers, particularly those that want you to go somewhere. I told her that OC-Spray in anything less than a can of bug-spray was useless, plus it was unreliable and a risk to her, as well. She told me that she had actually sprayed one of her attackers with pepper spray, right in his face, but he just LAUGHED at her and hit her. In the end, the best recommendation that I could give her (aside from changing jobs) was to invest the money in a bullet-resistant partition to separate her from the passenger compartment, plus replacing her front windows with bullet-proof plastic. Even then, I reminded her, she would be exposed if she got out to knock on a door, so I reminded her that she probably couldn't be sure of her passenger. I told her as much as I thought would be useful, even after we had arrived at the terminal, before I left the cab.

    I don't know if sharing this story is necessary, but I think that it reminds us of the REAL dangers in this world. Further, it should encourage us to REALLY look at our martial art without the distorting effect of emotions and romanticized images. For some of us, THIS IS NOT A GAME. THIS IS FOR KEEPS!
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 10:38am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Martial Arts is an apt term. Broken down it means "Skills pretaining to War", as you well no. The problem is a lot of pple when they hear the term MA think of gi clad pple doing kata, Bruce Lee, and a majority anything ASIAN!!! The do not realize that Firearm training is a MA, plotting an air strike is a MA, or even setting an ambush.

    All the things you listed fall under the term MA. Many pple agree with the scientific approach to combat. However the image of MA has been so distorted that pple don't want to see it. I tell die hard TMA guys that once you strip away all the religious, mystic, "character building" garbage you are left with basicly DEFEATING THE ENEMY and that is universal.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. hockey chick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 11:31am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sheol, you could have recommended a style that includes joint manipulation and pressure points, but since she has her back turned to her attacker and has no room to do anything, I don't think anything would help. If she thought she could defend herself she might try something and end up enraging her attacker to do further harm. She should get a concealed weapon license and a gun.

    I work in a very dangerous profession and my limited MA knowledge helps me immensely with 'difficult' people. But I also always have a crew or a partner with me, I'm not alone. I've never been in the position where I didn't have someone close by I could call for help if I needed it.

    I don't think I answered your original question, though, sorry.
  5. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 11:49am

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     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dont recommend ANY art for that type of situation uless you want to get your friend killed.

    I agree %100 with all of your comments. You just say them in a much nicer way than I would. I've had it just about to the BRIM with all this NONSENSE. I cant even READ anything by Royal Dragon without my blood pressure going through the ROOF.

    I think that this game is 'for keeps' for EVERYONE. I TRUELY cannot teach a student something I KNOW is useless without worrying that I'm giving them a false sense of security.

    If I controlled martial arts I would make teachers have a disclaimer on most techniques. Something like:

    "This looks REALLY cool and its fun, but I wouldnt try it if you were grabbed for real."

    Alot of these guys just dont want to face the music. I had to. I was a black belt and taught classes regularly. I knew Forms and taught Tamashiwara(wood breaking), I've broken bricks. When I saw all those things really werent worth too much I left and started searching for things that ARE worth the price tag in realism.

    It makes me mad now to see instructors making frail women break pine boards and telling them:

    "That was an attackers nose."

    They never mention that AFTER she breaks the attackers nose he's going to break HER. Or HIM for that matter.

    People are content to teach ancient training ways and all out CRAP in the face of EVERYTHING that was learned regarding the USELESSNESS of them. Money and the fact that they REFUSE to stop being called SIFU or SENSEI is what stops them from getting rid of ALL that nonsense and giving their students what they actually paid for: Real knowledge of the anatomy of an attack.

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  6. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 12:07pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hockey chick:
    "sheol, you could have recommended a style that includes joint manipulation and pressure points"

    A good way to get her killed. Joint manipulation assumes a successful grab... either by the perpetrator or the victim. If the perps. have weapons, which they did on all four times, she would have succeeded in provoking the attacker to shoot or stab/cut her... probably multiple times. As for pressure points, there's no nicer way to say it other than they (1) don't work consistently, (2) can also provoke an immediate violent response. In her case, the assailants all had deadly weapons....

    "but since she has her back turned to her attacker and has no room to do anything, I don't think anything would help."

    Two of the attacks were from the back seats. One attack was from the front driver-side door and one from the front passenger side door. She is vulnerable to threats from all sides.

    "She should get a concealed weapon license and a gun."
    I really thought about it, but given that she would be ambushed without a drawn firearm, her chances of having the weapon taken away or her being shot/stabbed/cut before the weapon was drawn and ready, are extremely high. She had a higher chance of putting her firearm in her assailant's posession. Further, there's the matter of her willingness to kill. I believe that I did ask her that if she had a gun, whether she would be willing to shoot to kill. Her reply was pretty much negatory, wanting to threaten with the gun or shoot a warning shot. I told her that she might as well buy a starter pistol if she wanted to do that. Not a good CW candidate.

    Thanks for the post, though.
  7. RellBound is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 12:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem is no matter what you know if the attacker knows what he is doing they will get the advantage of you. Case point is Vanderlai Silva. Three guys carjacked him in Brazil. All he did was hand everything over and let them drive off. Smartest thing he probably could have done since the were armed to begin with.

    The Oldschool is here....and I'm going to Rell in a Randbasket!
  8. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 12:26pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Peedee Shaolin:

    "I agree %100 with all of your comments. You just say them in a much nicer way than I would."

    You say that because you don't know how many times I delete entire paragraphs because I REALLY start going at and just refrain from posting because of the insanity of it all.

    "People are content to teach ancient training ways and all out CRAP in the face of EVERYTHING that was learned regarding the USELESSNESS of them."

    It's one thing for con-men to bilk money out of people. It is something entirely different when the instructor is sincere. Which is sadder, that they don't re-evaluate their entire art (and attitude), or that they actually believe that they are teach, training, and using their art the way it was originally meant.

    Just letting you know that you're not alone in being fed-up. I just have this hope that just MAYBE I can make a difference with all these posts. Yeah... I must be delusional.
  9. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 12:33pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rellbound:
    The problem is no matter what you know if the attacker knows what he is doing they will get the advantage of you. Case point is Vanderlai Silva. Three guys carjacked him in Brazil. All he did was hand everything over and let them drive off. Smartest thing he probably could have done since the were armed to begin with.
    You might know that, I might know that, and every single person on this forum might know that, but how many times do you hear of "street-smarts" being taught at schools.... Self-defense, indeed.

    Save your money. Buy a second-chance vest. It's more practical.
  10. hockey chick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2002 12:51pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sheol, true, the only solution is to avoid putting yourself at risk. I don't advocate guns (usually just escalates the danger), most people in stressful situations freeze anyways, so what's the use. I think she should quit, flip burgers or something. Is the lease on the car more important than her life? Anything else you can suggest, self-defense wise, is more for psychological well-being. It's the feeling of self-confidence it can give you; most theives are cowards and are looking for the weak. But it is better to cooperate, they are in control, desperate, with nothing to lose while I have everything to lose, my life.
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