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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2006 11:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher
    Not unique. American Kenpo and other arts like it use this concept extensively. I've found it to be largely false, largely because it is predicated on the success of each attack in series. Basing your next action on the assumption the previous action will be successful is a recipe for disaster. If you're even going to try it, you better have built in redundancy and attempt multiple things all with same goal, i.e. if you want guy to bend down you should kick him in the groin, hit him in the gut, and hit him on the back of the head. Requiring a strike to land with sufficient force to cause "injury", not just pain makes success even less likely.
    Holy ****!!!! That's what my kempo instructor back in 92 or 93 used to talk about when he was teaching these complex/confusing combinations!!! Jeeez, not to deviate too much from the thread, but reading this is like having a bad repressed traumatic memory resurfacing after coming out of a deep comma.
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  2. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2006 8:49pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having looked over the thread again I'm beginning to see some potentially serious flaws in the TFT system. I'm at work right now so I don't have any of the TFT material with me, but I'll have to take a deeper look at this when I get home. Apart from the merits of their training methods being questionable, there are two larger issues.


    THE UNIVERSAL REFLEX TO INJURIES.

    If the CNS-reflex thing really is as unreliable as stated, then TFT is based on a factual inacurracy! The CNS-reflex, and the idea that it is universal, is, if not the base, then a cornerstone of the system. It is called "target-focus training" because of it's emphasis on focusing on a specific target that is more injury-prone than others (and they have a chart of a selection) and setting off the CNS-reflex by inflicting injuries, thereby "locking the person in his reflexes". In that sense they say that "all targets are equal". And as "punisher" said; "Basing your next action on the assumption the previous action will be successful is a recipe for disaster", so even if the CNS-reflex thing is true, it is still unreliable! TFT does seem to have an overly textbook-like view on violence and if the CNS thing really is a factual inacurracy I'd say it's probably a case of mistaking the map for the territory.


    TFT AS A SELF-DEFENSE SOLUTION

    There is also the issue of TFT being an incomplete solution to self-defense. The first line of defense is awareness. As far as my memory serves me, TFT only touches this aspect superficially, mainly through the social/anti-social vs. asocial-violence concept; which by the way is good but needs a better foundation. The message of the violence categorization concept is that violence that can be avoided should be and in unavoidable violent situations there should be no hesitation, but I can't recall them teaching proper ways to de-escalate conflicts (which can be essential for avoiding those avoidable situations...). The next line of defense -- mainly for when you have a lapse in awareness or the other guy(s) somehow else manage to launch an effective offense -- is... defense. Blocking, evading, and countering may not be the first choice, but they can still save your ass when you **** up in another area; because fuckups always seems to happen when you need them the least it makes sense to have a multilayered defense system, TFT however seems to place the whole bet on one card, and although I agree to the idea that offense is the best defense, **** happens...

    The reason I'm posting is mainly to ask if anyone knows more than what has already been mentioned about the CNS-reflex issue, that may be a big one...
    Last edited by Jebuyaga; 3/16/2006 8:54pm at .
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2006 9:29pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just wanted to say that this is one of the best threads I've read on here in a while. Printing this out for someone.
  4. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2006 12:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard
    THE UNIVERSAL REFLEX TO INJURIES.

    If the CNS-reflex thing really is as unreliable as stated, then TFT is based on a factual inacurracy! The CNS-reflex, and the idea that it is universal, is, if not the base, then a cornerstone of the system. It is called "target-focus training" because of it's emphasis on focusing on a specific target that is more injury-prone than others (and they have a chart of a selection) and setting off the CNS-reflex by inflicting injuries, thereby "locking the person in his reflexes". In that sense they say that "all targets are equal". And as "punisher" said; "Basing your next action on the assumption the previous action will be successful is a recipe for disaster",
    In defense of TFT, they don’t base their succeeding actions on what they believe will happen, but what bodily reaction is received through their strikes. Therefore, this correlation is incorrect. The problem centers on whether or not they ‘will’ indeed get the reactions they are hoping through their targeting. There’s a difference.

    The reason I'm posting is mainly to ask if anyone knows more than what has already been mentioned about the CNS-reflex issue, that may be a big one...
    Affirming what I stated earlier read these excerpts from various sites ->

    The Central Nervous System

    Dr. C. George Boeree

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Spinal Cord

    The spinal cord runs from the base of the skull all the way down the spine to the "tail bone." The neurons are found in an H-shaped space within the spinal vertebrae. There are motor pathways coming down from the brain and sensory pathways going up to the brain. Sensory nerves enter into the back parts (dorsal roots) of the "H," while motor neurons exit the forward parts (ventral roots) of the "H." Interneurons often connect these sensory and motor neurons.

    Besides sending messages up and down to and from the brain, the spinal cord has another very important function: Reflexes. In fact, in very simple animals, that is the main function of the cord. Basically, a reflex is the connection of sensory neurons, via interneurons, to motor neurons. For example, there are pain sensors in your fingers. If you hold your finger over a flame for a period of time, the pain will trigger motor neurons to pull your finger away. It is true that you can over-ride this reflex with "will power," but as the example intentionally shows, it isn't easy!

    ******************************

    Spinal Cord-Relays all signals transmitted between the brain and the peripheral nervous system, on route to all muscles below the head, including:

    Voluntary Muscles
    Involuntary (smooth) Muscle, for instance for regulation of:
    Heart Rhythm
    Bladder Control
    Intestinal Peristalsis
    *******************************


    PNS: somatic (voluntary) nervous system, autonomic (involuntary) nervous system

    The peripheral nervous system includes sensory receptors, sensory neurons, and motor neurons. Sensory receptors are activated by a stimulus (change in the internal or external environment). The stimulus is converted to an electronic signal and transmitted to a sensory neuron. Sensory neurons connect sensory receptors to the CNS. The CNS processes the signal, and transmits a message back to an effector organ (an organ that responds to a nerve impulse from the CNS) through a motor neuron.

    The PNS has two parts: the somatic nervous system and the autonomic nervous system. The somatic nervous system, or voluntary nervous system, enables humans to react consciously to environmental changes. It includes 31 pairs of spinal nerves and 12 pairs of cranial nerves. This system controls movements of skeletal (voluntary) muscles.

    The involuntary nervous system (autonomic nervous system) maintains homeostasis. As its name implies, this system works automatically and without voluntary input. Its parts include receptors within viscera (internal organs), the afferent nerves that relay the information to the CNS, and the efferent nerves that relay the action back to the effectors. The effectors in this system are smooth muscle, cardiac muscle and glands, all structures that function without conscious control. An example of autonomic control is movement of food through the digestive tract during sleep.

    The efferent portion of the autonomic system is divided into sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. The sympathetic nerves mobilize energy for the 'Fight or Flight' reaction during stress, causing increased blood pressure, breathing rate, and bloodflow to muscles. Conversely, the parasympathetic nerves have a calming effect; they slow the heartbeat and breathing rate, and promote digestion and elimination. This example of intimate interaction with the endocrine system is one of many that explain why the two systems are called the neuroendocrine system.

    The relationship between sensory and motor neurons can be seen in a reflex (rapid motor response to a stimulus). Reflexes are quick because they involve few neurons. Reflexes are either somatic (resulting in contraction of skeletal muscle) or autonomic (activation of smooth and cardiac muscle). All reflex arcs have five basic elements: a receptor, sensory neuron, integration center (CNS), motor neuron, and effector.

    Spinal reflexes are somatic reflexes mediated by the spinal cord. These can involve higher brain centers. In a spinal reflex, the message is simultaneously sent to the spinal cord and brain. The reflex triggers the response without waiting for brain analysis. If a finger touches something hot, the finger jerks away from the danger. The burning sensation becomes an impulse in the sensory neurons. These neurons synapse in the spinal cord with motor neurons that cause the burned finger to pull away. This spinal reflex is a flexor, or withdrawal reflex.

    The stretch reflex occurs when a muscle or its tendon is struck. The jolt causes the muscle to contract and inhibits antagonist muscle contraction. A familiar example is the patellar reflex, or knee-jerk reflex, that occurs when the patellar tendon is struck. The impulse travels via afferent neurons to the spinal cord where the message is interpreted. Two messages are sent back, one causing the quadriceps muscles to contract and the other inhibiting the antagonist hamstring muscles from contracting. The contraction of the quadriceps and inhibition of hamstrings cause the lower leg to kick, or knee-jerk.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  5. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2006 11:12pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    (after the hand-on-stove example) Heat isn't the only thing that causes unstoppable reactions in people. Pain inflicted in different ways on different parts of the body can have similar, predictable effects.
    P - 17 TFT sourcebook.

    These effects need to be injuries to the body of the other man, neither more nor less. There are many specific effects that you can impose on the man depending on the type and location of the blow. There are however, three rules that are always true:

    *The head and hands move toward the point of contact.
    *Strikes to either side of the spine rotate the body in the direction of the strike.
    *Strikes above the solar plexus bend the body backwards; strikes below the solar plexus bend it forward.

    These reactions are physiological reactions to painful stimuli. They are unconscious, instinctive and impossible to counter. Understanding these reflexes will enable a fighter to predict how the man will move when struck, allowing him to prepare for the next strike. In effect, the fighter becomes a 'puppet master.'
    P - 25: TFT sourcebook.
    This is the thing I was talking about earlier. What let's you "level the playing field" regardless of how "tough" he is or his physical attributes. Using his CNS against him, and TFT's perspective on it. Something that has been under everyone's noses but no one has made full use of until now.


    But let's move to how it's done then. The TFT approach is simple and straight-forward; "injure the man until he's no longer a threat.", "always attack as hard as you can", "there are no ranges, I'm on top of the man at all times" and of course "always aim for a target." Scinse TFT has no specific techniques, but rather, principles, it is very uncomplicated. The whole mindset foundation is pretty good. When attacking TFT emphasises proper structure to maximise energy transfer, and not striking with just your arms or legs but with your whole body, the limb is mostly for transferring the force of your body in motion, into a target. So far so good. As long as you manage to continously land attacks of this type, you should be off pretty good, wether or not you're triggering reflexes at every attack or not. If you expect him to do something and position yourself for it and he doesen't react the way you expected, it's not so good though.
  6. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2006 2:08am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    (after the hand-on-stove example) Heat isn't the only thing that causes unstoppable reactions in people. Pain inflicted in different ways on different parts of the body can have similar, predictable effects.
    P - 17 TFT sourcebook.
    I believe it's a fairly established fact that not all individuals react similarly to pain-induced force and that all fighters have various levels of skill in which to inflict that force. Therefore, the reactions are subjected to variables present in both the fighter and attacker.

    These effects need to be injuries to the body of the other man, neither more nor less. There are many specific effects that you can impose on the man depending on the type and location of the blow. There are however, three rules that are always true:

    *The head and hands move toward the point of contact.
    Hmmmm, this is dependent on the force inflicted and to which zone on the body. If they are referring to the pain receptors of the of the human body, this occurs naturally. However, if I slug TFT Master Instructor Torin to the face, his head will not move toward the point of contact, but will instead move with the force of the contact.

    *Strikes to either side of the spine rotate the body in the direction of the strike.
    Naturally, as I stated previously, every joint in the human body rotates on a axis, the spine happens to be the primary axis of the body.

    *Strikes above the solar plexus bend the body backwards; strikes below the solar plexus bend it forward.

    These reactions are physiological reactions to painful stimuli.
    They are, then again they don't necessarily have to be reactions to painful stimuli. This is similarly accomplished by gentle pushing or a surpise poke.

    They are unconscious, instinctive and impossible to counter.
    Again, this is a flaw in reasoning and medical ignorance.

    Understanding these reflexes will enable a fighter to predict how the man will move when struck, allowing him to prepare for the next strike. In effect, the fighter becomes a 'puppet master.'
    P - 25: TFT sourcebook.
    While there is a predictability factor, it is by no means assured.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard
    This is the thing I was talking about earlier. What let's you "level the playing field" regardless of how "tough" he is or his physical attributes. Using his CNS against him, and TFT's perspective on it. Something that has been under everyone's noses but no one has made full use of until now.
    If you want to 'use' the CNS against someone, the most basic way is to manipulate the head. No matter how powerful or large an opponent is, if you crank on somebodies neck, you can easily manipulate their body. This is how a cowboy at a rodeo can bring down a steer with his bare hands that may outweigh him by 400 lb by simply torquing the animals neck. Humans beings are no different, albeit much more fragile.

    But let's move to how it's done then. The TFT approach is simple and straight-forward; "injure the man until he's no longer a threat.",
    It is possible to subdue an attacker without breaking him completely if at all. It is only the lack of knowledge that keeps you from being capable of doing so.

    "always attack as hard as you can",
    That's just an idiotic statement. What is the point of depleting your energy if it is not warranted?

    "there are no ranges, I'm on top of the man at all times" and of course "always aim for a target."
    Reminds me of RBSD dogmatism.

    [/I]Scinse TFT has no specific techniques, but rather, principles, it is very uncomplicated. The whole mindset foundation is pretty good. When attacking TFT emphasises proper structure to maximise energy transfer, and not striking with just your arms or legs but with your whole body, the limb is mostly for transferring the force of your body in motion, into a target. So far so good. As long as you manage to continously land attacks of this type, you should be off pretty good, wether or not you're triggering reflexes at every attack or not. If you expect him to do something and position yourself for it and he doesen't react the way you expected, it's not so good though.
    Having seen a few clips of TFT Master Instructor Torin, I'm not all that impressed with his ability to deliver what he claims and the more I learn about their "evolving" system envisioned by the staff there, the less support I able to offer to them.
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 3/20/2006 2:14am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  7. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2006 6:43pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It really begins to sound like the TFT staff have over-estimated the effectiveness and reliability of the reflexes, almost like when someone starts theorizing on the fact that paper can cut you, and from that they start talking about how to use paper as a weapon, all of a sudden, paper has become a "highly effective weapon", and maybe someone writes a book about it, or creates a style based on it. Martial arts sensationalism, guess it sells... For the record, I've never heard of anyone talking about paper as a weapon except for the rolled up newspaper and single-use-shanks, it's just an example.

    From what I've seen so far it seems that the reflexes can't be relied upon to work the way TFT advertises, apparently they ignore the variables. Some of their texts are a bit confusing. In one instance, they say the reflexes are caused by "painful stimuli" in another they say that the reflexes are not triggered by pain. From this I assume they mean that if the person percieves the pain or not is immaterial, and that the body registers and reacts to the stimuli wether or not the person is consciously aware of the pain, as in how a strong enough stimulus jumps from the sensory neurons to the motor neurons.

    The perception of pain is a very subjective thing, there are people who do not feel pain whatsoever, there are also drugs that block out the sensation of pain, large amounts of adrenaline can also block pain. So pain itself is not a reliable fight-stopper. As long as the blocking-out of pain is limited to the conscious awareness of it, it's fine. If however -- and this is an important issue -- the "painful stimulus" is never picked up by the nervous system; the TFT "puppet master" approach won't work. Is it possible to do this while still being capable of fighting?

    As questionable as the reliability and uniformity of the reflexes may be, even if the reflexes were textbook-examples every time, the greatest weakness would still be the process of causing the injuries to trigger them. I mentioned the TFT strategy above, to be fair it should be mentioned again that TFT is intended for the most serious type of violent situations, and it is also geared to be easily absorbed by beginners. The major concern is with the methods and the training.

    As mentioned TFT is more concerned with having a clear goal ("cause injuries until he's no longer a threat") and following certain principles than specific techniques. It is a form-follows-function mentality, and the techniques are very basic and simple. The idea is to attack injury-prone areas of the body as hard as possible with the first and best methods that come to mind, triggering reflexes. Keeping this course, the other person will sooner or later be too injured to continue fighting. They don't seem to take note of the possibility that the other person(s) may be very good at blocking and countering, a hard attack is easier to spot then a quick one, and emphasizing only "as hard as you can" attacks may leave the fighter open.

    When it comes to their training methods; from what I've seen TFT does a good job in setting up a proper mindset, and they also do a decent job in telling the "why's" of what you're doing. What I haven't seen, however is any element of resistance in the training. And that's pretty much what a fight is, heaps and loads of resistance. Lack of resistance in training seems to be one of the most common shortcomings of most martial arts. Even the ridiculed Aikido can work if trained progressively to where the training partner (ukemi is it?) is trying his very best to attack you and to **** up everything you do. Unless he is completely incompetant; if he is trying his best, then apart from the other factors of the street, it's as close to real as it gets without being real.

    It might be argued though that it's too dangerous to train with such levels of resistance. But this is just the old "too deadly for sparring" argument. There's always something that can be done to add resistance. That's why I mentioned the use of "high gear" suits earlier in the thread, at least as stages in the training.
  8. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 10:55am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard
    They don't seem to take note of the possibility that the other person(s) may be very good at blocking and countering, a hard attack is easier to spot then a quick one, and emphasizing only "as hard as you can" attacks may leave the fighter open.
    Such a methodology may lead to over-extending thus becoming easily prone to be unbalanced; especiially if you miss your target. Nobody, absolutely nobody connects with their targets 100% of the time. As I said, idiotic.

    What I haven't seen, however is any element of resistance in the training. And that's pretty much what a fight is, heaps and loads of resistance. Lack of resistance in training seems to be one of the most common shortcomings of most martial arts.
    It is interesting to point out that TFT does not believe in hitting heavy bags of any sort, the most basic forms of resistance training. This calls into question their effectiveness at striking targets with a sufficient amount of force.

    It might be argued though that it's too dangerous to train with such levels of resistance. But this is just the old "too deadly for sparring" argument. There's always something that can be done to add resistance. That's why I mentioned the use of "high gear" suits earlier in the thread, at least as stages in the training.
    That's a bit of fallacy as well, grappling arts (such as the Gracies) do not use padded suits and are effective resistance based systems and you would be hard-pressed to find any evidence to the contrary. Besides, while many RBSD types find padded suits sublime, they only stop impact force to the padded regions, but lack any protection to joint manipulation or joint breaks providing a false sense of security and realism.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  9. odd_lifter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2006 11:04am


     Style: grab & elbow the head

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    nah, just do a combination of philippine martial arts muay thai and shoot
  10. curby82 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2006 10:30am


     Style: Violence

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmmm just out of curiousity I put in a search for TFT and came upon this site, and seeing as I attended a live session as well as purchased 2 of their produts I thought I should put in my 2 cents on this topic though it appears to be a couple months too late.

    There was so much mis-information and misunderstanding that I don't know where to start on this so I'll just bable on and hope that I get most of what I want to say in.

    First I'll start with the reflex actions that is one of the stones that tft is based on.
    Now you guys can talk semantics all day long but look at it from this point of view. If I step in and hit you with a brick to the nose, will your hands stay at your sides or go to your knee to protect it? obviously not I think we can all have an objective view as to how the body would react to that. So what about a kick to the groin that ruptures a testicle or both? would your pelvis arch foward toward the thing that injured it and would your hands fly up into the air or would it go the area of injury to try and protect it from getting said injury a second time and would'nt your pelvis move away from that negative stimuli? duh! so you guys can spend all day carrying us back to biology class with all the fancy diagrams and terms but just from the basic examples that i posted there I think we can all see what will happen in actuality. TFT is not talking about tapping an area to get the body to react a certain way.... no forget that, its about breaking an anatomically weak area of the body and then the body cries out telling you to do something to protect yourself, its like mashing the gas after the light has already turned red, but you already got it.

    Soo how does TFT teach you to utilize these reactions?

    First I'll clear up the thing that was said about a system based on the reaction of somethig something something, I cant remember but the fact is you Don't practice for failure but we all know that **** happens and TFT does prepare you for that by training you to look for the base line minimum effect for a strike to each target so that you know if you don't see that reaction you immediatly go to the next target but then thats almost the same as most other systems right, if you miss your target you go into another one, but the difference with target focus training and most other systems is that we put everything into that one target to insure that if we are going to spend time on that target its not going to work any more unlike other systems that have you hit someone 10 times in a fury of attacks and hope that one of them hits somthing and apart from that if your speed hitting like that you can be sure that under adrenaline your not going to be getting much of your targets if any as well you are only using static striking which I guess does hurt depending onyour size but it's not the kind of strikes that break things. That also answers that question or rather statement that pain is what causes the reaction, yes thier is pain involved but we are not concerned about the pain, TFT is concerned about the fact that you broke the man's leg and a broken leg does'nt work anymore as well that broken leg well produce a reflex ation, the hands go to the point of injury and the head and eyes also go their to asses the damage and thats where I use that info to my advantage by either letting him bring his fingers to me so I can break it or even better let him sit up into my volley adding 50% more force to my strike or I'll use another example of how we use the reflex actions to our advantage. Lets say I step in and hit the guy to the solar plexus then from behind as he is bending over I palm smack him to the groin and grab of fist full of testicles we can all imagine his initial reaction to that right? how about this what do you think will happen if I move my hand to the left, do you think he's going to move to the right? no he's going to move wherever my hand goes, and it's not because I'm stronger than him but rather the body does'nt want to go somewhere that will cause more pain to it so he will follow my lead in an effort to alliviate that pain, same is if I hold onto his fingers after injuring him and break it down, does his body go up? thats a spinal reflex action, he did'nt work it out in his mind and then decide to drop to the groud because he thought it would be less pain involved, he did that because his body told him to, there was no thought process involved.

    Next on the topic of what if you were ambushed how does TFT help you then.

    The one answer to every situation is injury. What if he has a knife to my throat? I injure him. What if he knocked me over the head and I'm on the ground? You Injure him and on and on and on.
    Because we don't focus on senarios and techniques but rather just finding a target and injuring it all these questions become easy to answer, because we also practice hitting each one of those 200 targets on the body from different orientations of the body as well as using diff body tools to get the job done. So lets use an example, lets say I'm on the ground and the guy comes behind me and puts or rather is attempting to put his arms or even a knife around my neck and I say attempting because I'm not going to wait on him to see what kind of choke hold he puts on me but rather I'm going to pick a target thats easily available to me and in this senario I choose his LFC nerve that runs along the outside of his leg and the tool I choose is my elbow, from there I get my reflex action and then I choose whatever target I want from there. I quote from Mr. Larkin " I can walk out that door today and be greeted by a baseball bat and I go down just like everyone else, but what we are preparing you for is an instance where an opportunity is given to you, meaning the guy has not (injured) you as yet" because not because someone has all this info means they are immune to violence because a hammer to the head works on everyone.

    Hmmmmm what else was there to talk about.... oh The colouring books.. I think Tim Larkin created a newsletter just for you man and i'll go find it and post it for you so that he can answer you himself, but for the record the mastery programe is for those preparing to be instructors, they already went through all the training and the Master instructors need to know that they know all the information about the human anatomy needed to teach this stuff to others, but there is no easy way to do this apart from sending them to med school because they all don't live in the same state.

    K thats it for now
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