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  1. feedback is offline
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    UAAAH!

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 3:53am

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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm suprised, KFss has a basic understanding of physiology! Well done.
    Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.
  2. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 4:10am

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    Quote Originally Posted by feedback
    I'm suprised, KFss has a basic understanding of physiology! Well done.
    It doesn't really require a more indepth understanding of physiology when it comes to fighting application, at a certain point it becomes superfluous.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  3. feedback is offline
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    UAAAH!

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    Posted On:
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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, I wasn't saying you needed more. I study exercise science and I can actually tell you know what you're talking about.
    Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.
  4. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 4:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by feedback
    No, I wasn't saying you needed more. I study exercise science and I can actually tell you know what you're talking about.
    When I said superfluous (pay attention to the projected damage in the lesson). As an aside, there's absolutely no way to verify any of this is actually going to happen, not unless you sit there and examine the body after it's expired. Then you're probably going to jail.->

    TFT Mastery | View topic - Lesson 8

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    Lesson 8


    Mastery Forum Index -> G1 Lessons

    Author Message

    Torin
    Master Instructor

    Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject: Lesson 8


    R claw to eyes (R to L)

    Pivot from R to L (away)

    Blinded for the duration of the fight

    R roundhouse knee/kick (depending on distance to target) to spleen

    Pivot to L side, step back with L, hands cover target

    Break ribs, lacerate or rupture spleen (potential cause for hypervolumic shock)

    L forearm hammer to R vagus (setting R foot out of 2., above); continue into L comb grab to back of head

    Bend over further to L side

    Large stimulus to the parasympathetic system, begin to 'pass-out'

    Grab chin with R, (L step back and around, pivot on R foot)

    rotate head counter-clockwise to slam him on to his back (dropping to R knee).

    Lay down hard, face upHead trauma (concussion, hemorrhaging, skull fracture, etc.)

    Rise up, L kick to neck (stepping over him to straddle his head)

    Head turns in direction of kick (during impact), then rolls away

    Huge stimulus to the parasympathetic system, probable vertebral injury

    R heel stomp to temple.

    Lay very still

    Large head trauma (secondary concussion, hemorrhaging, skull fracture, etc.)
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  5. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 4:41am

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    This is why I rag on TFT coloring books, the entire concept is just idiotic. Coloring books won't even make you a better artist, let alone a more proficient fighter regardless of what TFT tells you. ->

    TFT Mastery | View topic - Anatomy Coloring Book Assignments



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    Anatomy Coloring Book Assignments


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    Torin
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    Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:17 pm Post subject: Anatomy
    Coloring Book Assignments



    The mail-in portion of the Anatomy Coloring Book assignment
    are listed below.
    Enjoy learning about the human tool, filling in the blanks
    will be easy.
    This is highly-recommended for those of you looking to improve
    your abilities, and mandatory for those of you interested in
    attaining the TFTrainer credential.
    Mail To:
    TFT Group
    attn: coloring book
    8370 W Cheyenne, Ste 109-166
    Las Vegas, NV 89129

    Last edited by Torin on Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:18 am; edited 1
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    Torin
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    Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:17 am Post subject: ACB
    Assignment #1



    Skeletal and Articular Systems/ Upper Limb
    Bones/Joints in Review(pg. 36)
    This needs to be completed and mailed by May 15th (this should
    be sufficient even if you have not started the book).
    Please fill in the blank lines with the appropriate answer. A
    photocopy of the page is recommended, to maintain the
    usefulness of your ACB in the future.

    Last edited by Torin on Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:34 am; edited 1
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    Torin
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    Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:33 am Post subject: ACB
    Assignment #2



    Read Skeletal and Articular Systems/ Lower Limb (pgs. 37-42)
    and answer the Bones/Joints in Review(pg. 43)
    Note: pay attention to the mention of structural weakness in
    the ankle at the bottom of page 42.

    Please complete and mail a photocopy of the review page by
    July 1st to the address above.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  6. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
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    "I mean really imagine it."

    TFT Mastery | View topic - OperantFighting experienced



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    OperantFighting experienced


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    Eric Williams
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    Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:20 pm Post subject:
    OperantFighting experienced



    I'm not trying to instruct when I reply to this (because I'm
    not an instructor) but I think I have already started doing
    this TO A CERTAIN DEGREE at the TFT training I've attended. I
    will go ahead and share my experience with it (If I'm
    understanding what your saying about "operant fighting").

    "You see; when operantFighting, you do techniques on your
    partner at a pace that allows you to control and see all of
    these variables."

    I have found this to be very helpful if you are talking about
    the same thing I switched to doing when I attended my first
    training with TFT (and even more so durring my second TFT
    training!). It was actually kinda hard doing this at first but
    my cordination improved at an awesome rate after slowing WAY
    down to an almost rediculus rate of slowness, concentrating on
    how my body was positioned strucurally (for acquiring the most
    balance and power generation), my proximity to the attacker
    (closeness to the attacker when fighting) and my fluidity
    (smoothness of combineing strikes,leverages,etc) and most
    importantly looking at the target FIRST, just like you
    instrutors where instructing the whole time. After a while of
    going very slow I found myself naturally speeding up but still
    using good structure, fluidity, and overall cordination. Every
    now and then (if you know who I am) I would start speeding up
    too much and then I would start to get sloppy again. I would
    then slow down again to my previous acquired ability and let
    myself progress in speed, cordination, fluidity, etc.
    naturally. I enjoyed freefighting outside on the grass, gravel
    and concrete (I learned at my second TFT Seminar in Las Vegas)
    because it was an excellent way to force myself to go slow and
    concentrate on all the above variables so I could continually
    increase my fighting ability and most importantly prevent
    injury.

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    Torin
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    Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:22 pm Post subject:



    Excellent post, Eric.

    Don't worry to much about the teaching thing-- we'll let you
    know. Its not a Cardinal Sin--such as being a Canadian, like
    meself. Its just important for people to understand why an
    Instructor might chime in, or edit a comment.

    Your experience is an excellent example of operantFighting,
    with a Live Partner. But lets take it one step further...

    Imagine walking up to a guy and doing Lesson 1 to him. I mean
    really imagine it. Read about how his body moves from the
    first strike to the back of his neck. Now 'Imagine' hitting
    him with your forearm, and seeing his body do that motion.

    Hell-- stand up and walk through that lesson by yourself
    (don't call your friend into the room and hit them). I mean
    really-- Stand up and walk through the Lesson!

    But: make sure you see the guy, bending and moving during your
    technique--flying back into the ground from your left kick at
    the end of the lesson.
    Graphic imagery, yes? See the reactions? Did you practically
    feel the nose break when you kicked him?

    That is true operantFighting. You've just kicked a man in the
    grille. The only difference is: there is no one to measure how
    badly his head is damaged but You. And that small fact means
    it wasn't reality. But your nerves and muscles can't tell.

    Since you moved your body, struck targets and fired neurons to
    make the muscles move where you wanted for the purpose of
    fightin'... you've just gotten one step better at actually
    kicking someone's face in.
    And the police aren't going to be calling you. Neat, hunh?
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  7. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 8:02am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems BJJ, sambo.etc... has the joint breaking thing down pat compared to TFT. And for TehdeadlyDimMak, watch a submission grappling match to see how ne trains joint breaking. Almost every tap is a joint break unless its a choke.

    This is exactly the same concept as some ancient kempo i saw in BB magzine a while back. You hit him, he does this and you hit again cause you already know what he is going to react. Stupid.
  8. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 6:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, good to see other people's take on it. Don't take me for a TFT-groupie though, the fact is I am very ambivalent toward TFT, while they have some seriously valid points, they also have large gaps that I need to fill by other means, mainly; awareness, de-escalation, defense (in case you have a lapse in awareness) not to mention the optimistic, textbook-like view they have on fights. In the real world, **** happens, and always when you want it the least.

    TFT is definitively not the ultimate system, they do have some valid ideas, which are the one's I'll keep, the rest... well, **** it.

    I like the concept of "cause" or "effect" state, that in a fight you are either (cause) doing it to someone or (effect) having it done on you, it's (un)common sense-though, they also base a lot of other stuff on top of this, which is why I think they bothered making it a key issue. The back of the coin right here though is with the complete lack of awareness or defense training, what if you're ambushed? You might never get a chance to attack unless you correct the fuckup, big gap there!

    As I mentioned, they intend TFT for the kind of violent situations where you are permitted to use whatever force is required to end the threat, which means that you stop when the man is no longer a threat. If that means killing him, then that's the way it is, but if you don't need to kill, then you are supposed to stop when as mentioned, he is no longer an acute threat, if he's unconscious you don't proceed to stomp his head into the ground, you get the idea...
    By "asocial" or "criminal unavoidable violence" as far as I've understood it they mean, i.e., (from the TFT sourcebook) when four guys with ski masks and duct tape steps out of a van and comes toward you, or other situations when no amount of talking or other social means of trying to avoid the confrontation is possible.
    I think this is mostly because of legal issues, but that works for me too.

    I also like the emphasis on the very reason you'd strike at someone anyway; to injure. That's the singular purpose as long as you're fighting anyone, To injure, injure and injure until you're done (and the other guy is no longer a threat) at least as far as I'm concerned...
    From "the TFT sourcebook";

    There are no ranges, I'm on top of the man at all times.
    The basic idea is that I'm not going to jump around, kick, jump back, defend and give the guy a fair chance to prove himself as in a duel or sport. I'm going to do my utmost to **** the man up as much as possible in as short a timeframe as possible. In Larkin's words from the principles DVD:

    For all I know he might be an unbelieveable athlete. I don't want to find out how good he is, all I want is that eye...
    Concerning the base leverages, it's real simple stuff, and it's intended to make it easier for a novice to grasp it, and that's what's good about them, they simplify. They're valuable as a tool for understanding joint breaks and locks, they're no substitute for training however. Although there are a heap of different "styles" there's only one (normal) human body, so I consider it useful as a learning tool in conjunction with another "style", BJJ for instance. I hadn't trained any joint manipulation related styles before and didn't really have any more in-depth understanding of joint-breaking than "taking the joint where it was never intended to go", but after I was introduced to these concepts I went; "oh", it turned out to be a hell of a lot simpler than it was made up to be...

    The coloring-book stuff can be useful I guess, but only to an extent. I bought the anatomy coloring book recently, and it's a good way to get familiar with basic anatomy, more visual and not as "heavy" as text-based anatomy books. Understanding how the body works is a good place to start when trying to stop it from working, I don't think learning some anatomy is a bad thing.

    LI GUY 1 Wrote:watch a submission grappling match to see how ne trains joint breaking. Almost every tap is a joint break unless its a choke.
    Have you sen the throwdown vid of the _ing _un guy (who insisted on no-tap) who gets his arm broken by the BJJ,? MMA? guy (can't recall) you hear the arm go snap, and it's over. Funny vid, especially the beginning, and a good example of what you're talking about.



    In conclusion TFT tends to point out the obvious, which is actually ok scinse these things are typically overlooked by many. Also they tend to be very theoretical, when it's practical ability that counts in the real world, that's a flaw. The best way to learn something is by doing it, but with certain things it may not be safe or practical to learn that way, so you need to settle with synthetic experience (training), TFT however seems somewhat inadequate in this area, along with some of the core assumptions being if not incorrect, at least questionable. I don't consider TFT a stand-alone solution, but I do think their concepts can be useful in conjunction with other, more practical approaches.
    Last edited by Jebuyaga; 3/14/2006 6:24pm at .
  9. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2006 12:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard
    By "asocial" or "criminal unavoidable violence" as far as I've understood it they mean, i.e., (from the TFT sourcebook) when four guys with ski masks and duct tape steps out of a van and comes toward you, or other situations when no amount of talking or other social means of trying to avoid the confrontation is possible.
    I think this is mostly because of legal issues, but that works for me too.
    I suppose, but knowing and categorizing "violent acts" as TFT is seeking to do is just silly. They just ran 3 or so newsletters recently talking about some English individual that was mugged and killed, then how it tied into their worldly view. Ultimately, it was meaningless.

    The coloring-book stuff can be useful I guess, but only to an extent. I bought the anatomy coloring book recently, and it's a good way to get familiar with basic anatomy, more visual and not as "heavy" as text-based anatomy books. Understanding how the body works is a good place to start when trying to stop it from working, I don't think learning some anatomy is a bad thing.
    You don't need to waste your time with a coloring book. One individual told me, "I sit and color the book with my grand daughter." How much benefit do you suppose he got out of that or how seriously did he take the material? Look, if you think coloring books are beneficial to learning how to hurt someone, more power to you. There are a vast segment of the martial art population that believes doing kata's is also useful, but if I were to grill you on answering specifics regarding firearm disarmament protocols and solutions, no coloring book on the planet is going to allow you to come up with the answer.

    Take a look at this gif In that gif, I have used a very basic leverage to take an attacker down after clearing the field of fire (which I purposefully omit if anyone out there thinks they know more than I do) but I have the knowledgebase to handle a firearm disarmement from that starting position, clearing the line of fire with a single movement, flip the man end-over-end while maintaining a constant control over the field of fire (so bystanders aren't shot) and setting up for a neck break of the attacker without ever touching the firearm and never using my other hand throughout the entire process. You're not going to learn that from a coloring book.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  10. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2006 5:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I bought the anatomy coloring book just as a more visual guide to anatomy along with another book on anatomy. It's pretty good as far as that goes, but I don't think I'll bother doing the whole book. I don't believe coloring will do that much, most of the time I'll just look at the pictures, try to locate it in myself, then maybe I'll look at someone else and imagine where it is (arteries, bones,organs...).

    In the scope of learning some anatomy, the book is ok, but not much more. As far as I know it's the anatomy coloring book they're using. If they actually have a technique coloring book... well, that says it all... (I was under the impression that they didn't really have any specific techniques)


    As far as their violence categorizing goes it's about two types of violence; violence that is unavoidable and violence that can be de-escalated or prevented somehow else. The idea is that violence that can be avoided; should be, and just as importantly, when violence is unavoidable, there shouldn't be any hesitation to act. Like in the scenario with the four guys coming out of the van, any attempts to solve the problem by social means are more or less out of the question. A beginner might not understand that in the heat of the moment, and scinse I get the impression that TFT is geared toward beginners, it's ok to point it out. But as above, that's as far as it's usefulness goes.

    Knowledge is useful but it only takes you so far...
    Last edited by Jebuyaga; 3/15/2006 6:08pm at .
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