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  1. bwdillon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 9:22am


     Style: Oushikoso-Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Probably going to catch some flak for this.

    I've watched the joint manipulation and weapons series for TFT. I didn't think it was all that bad, sure it had it's problems but it also had some good points. Their philosophy on violence as a tool is pretty good. I have a little first hand experience with violent type people and this was pretty close. Their penetrate and rotate is affective in principle.
    I also agree with the injure not hurt your enemy mentality. Some people can take a lot more pain than others, especially when they are legitimately pissed enough to cripple or kill you. I learned that the hard way, I had always trained for a submission approach to joint locks and when I really had to use it I underestimated the guys pain tolerance and the greasy bastard pulled an ice pick on me. I still have the scar on my left forearm where he stabbed me (strangely I didn't even feel it when it happened but my hand would work right for a while).
    I also like the fact that they came out and said there are only so many ways to break a joint. The stuff they show isn't something you have to train in for years in order to use it.
    Those were the things I liked, here are some of the things I didn't. I didn't like how they made it look like their techniques work every time, in my experience that kind of thinking is dangerous and impractical. I'm only 18 so I know that I don't have as much experience as a lot of the others here but I have been in a few altercations. And yes I do know the difference between a bar fight and a serious assault. There is a big difference between the different kinds of “fighting” (sparring < combat sport fighting < scraping < criminal intent assault) this sort of thing wouldn't work well in the first to kinds of fighting unless it was adapted (which all arts should be able to do IMO). It shouldn't be used in a scrap because it's excessive force ( duty to flee kind of things). It works best in the last kind but only if the individual understands how things tend go in reality.
    Tell me if my logic is flawed.
  2. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 9:58am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Out of curiosity, what'd you think of the most recent video clip?
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  3. bwdillon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 11:05am


     Style: Oushikoso-Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not entirely sure of what context that training clip is in. That sort of randori training is good for developing body movement/placement but is completely unrealistic. It is important to give realistic reaction when you are doing this kind of training but you still need to give realistic attacks and resistance (don't be a compliant stoog and flop around like a fish).
    My friend who introduced me to TFT works in a psychiatric ward and has successfully used the base principles to take on larger untrained mentally unstable people.
  4. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 12:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bwdillon
    I'm not entirely sure of what context that training clip is in.
    Handling a guy armed with a firearm, i.e., threatening you with lethal force.

    That sort of randori training is good for developing body movement/placement but is completely unrealistic. It is important to give realistic reaction when you are doing this kind of training but you still need to give realistic attacks and resistance (don't be a compliant stoog and flop around like a fish).
    You stated previously the TFT mantra - "Penetrate, dominate, whatever." However, I did not see that in this clip. From what I can ascertain, this is 'technique 9' from some portion of their curriculum in dealing with people armed with firearms. Undoubtedly, instructor Torin posted this in the hopes of impressing the layman with his use of strike manipulation and takedown. Clearly, instructor Torin doesn't know what the hell he's talking about because that sort of thing from beginning to end is likely to get you shot and killed.

    My friend who introduced me to TFT works in a psychiatric ward and has successfully used the base principles to take on larger untrained mentally unstable people.
    I suppose when you get beyond the basics as this latest clip shows, TFT principles falls apart rather quickly.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  5. bwdillon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 1:40pm


     Style: Oushikoso-Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm weary of virtualy any gun defence. So far I have yet to meet someone who can pull them off successfully enough for me to be convinced. I used to have one of those airsoft guns that use the little paintballs/plastic bb's and if someone can't get make it work on that how can they make it work with a gun when someone has intent to kill.
    ps. I think I looked at the wrong clip LOL.
    wihich number post was the clip on?
    Last edited by bwdillon; 2/28/2007 1:45pm at . Reason: question
  6. bwdillon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 2:05pm


     Style: Oushikoso-Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh durr sorry about that, I was looking at one of the clips from a few pages back. Yeah this is a prime example of what I don't like about TFT. Like I said I still haven't met anyone who can preform this sort of thing satisfactorily.
  7. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 2:41pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    I suppose when you get beyond the basics as this latest clip shows, TFT principles falls apart rather quickly.
    Basics + impressive fluff = crap

    The formula to make it work is:

    Basics x time + resistance = ability to correctly improvise = "advanced technique"
  8. curby82 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2007 12:01am


     Style: Violence

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what the hell is wrong with these TFT people who think they can teach me how to injure someone in a weekend, don't they know it takes a degree in rocket science and years of practice to learn how to hurt someone, thats why only criminals do it effeciently cause they are smart and they sit on the block taking courses in knife and gun attacks.

    the clip was from thier weapons series which showed a lot of techniques the one you viewed just happened to be one where the the thug was simply brandishing the weapon and obviously showed others where the weapon was aimed from various orientations.

    on the topic of not taking control of the gun I say this. I know many feel uncomfortable with the target in this particular vid (pre mastoid) and quite frankly yes there are other targets that most may find easier or may trust more and thats fine, TFT just tries to show you the full range of targets that are available to you, because all targets are considered equal because quite frankly if the technique just showed him stepping in and toe kicking the guy in the groin and then with another step while he is going into his picture perfect groin reaction gave him a double forarm strike to the neck, causeing him to faint noone would have thought much of the gun because those targets are obvious to us, but quite frankly after kicking the guy in the balls, knocking him unconsious, then crushing his throat so he sufficates in his sleep, would me now picking up his gun that I know absolutly nothing about and shooting him be any worse than what I just did to him? some may still say yes quite boldly and thats ok I guess because all our lives we have been taught the gun carries all the power and to always respect and take care of the gun before anything else.

    The vids are not there to show you how to go about injuring a man with a gun, it's to show you different ways in which the principles can be imployed also the joint breaking and weapons vids do not go very in depth into TFT's principles, if you want a clear understanding on what it is about you will first need to get thier seminar series or attend one of thier live trainings.

    OH P.S. the gun does not do anything but what the operator tells it to, and TFT also goes in depth as well in showing you how to insure that you don't get shot accidentally while the guy is falling etc as well as ensureing the safety of bystanders but as alwasy the primary concern is yourself
  9. bwdillon is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2007 3:16am


     Style: Oushikoso-Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by curby82
    what the hell is wrong with these TFT people who think they can teach me how to injure someone in a weekend, don't they know it takes a degree in rocket science and years of practice to learn how to hurt someone, thats why only criminals do it effeciently cause they are smart and they sit on the block taking courses in knife and gun attacks.

    the clip was from thier weapons series which showed a lot of techniques the one you viewed just happened to be one where the the thug was simply brandishing the weapon and obviously showed others where the weapon was aimed from various orientations.

    on the topic of not taking control of the gun I say this. I know many feel uncomfortable with the target in this particular vid (pre mastoid) and quite frankly yes there are other targets that most may find easier or may trust more and thats fine, TFT just tries to show you the full range of targets that are available to you, because all targets are considered equal because quite frankly if the technique just showed him stepping in and toe kicking the guy in the groin and then with another step while he is going into his picture perfect groin reaction gave him a double forarm strike to the neck, causeing him to faint noone would have thought much of the gun because those targets are obvious to us, but quite frankly after kicking the guy in the balls, knocking him unconsious, then crushing his throat so he sufficates in his sleep, would me now picking up his gun that I know absolutly nothing about and shooting him be any worse than what I just did to him? some may still say yes quite boldly and thats ok I guess because all our lives we have been taught the gun carries all the power and to always respect and take care of the gun before anything else.

    The vids are not there to show you how to go about injuring a man with a gun, it's to show you different ways in which the principles can be imployed also the joint breaking and weapons vids do not go very in depth into TFT's principles, if you want a clear understanding on what it is about you will first need to get thier seminar series or attend one of thier live trainings.

    OH P.S. the gun does not do anything but what the operator tells it to, and TFT also goes in depth as well in showing you how to insure that you don't get shot accidentally while the guy is falling etc as well as ensureing the safety of bystanders but as alwasy the primary concern is yourself
    I like most of the tft stuff there take on violence is pretty close to the way it's been for me. But like I said try that gun defence shite while someone you don't train with (IE a buddy who dosn't do tft or any other martial art) uses an airsoft pistol on you. Remember to wear proper eye protection when you do this. Those airsoft pistols are dirt cheap, just tell him to try and shoot you while you defend. I'm not jokeing you should really do this, I teach self defence and I REFUSE to teach people anything I myself cannot do in real life.
    p.s I've watched two of there dvd sets so I'm not just going by the clips that are shown here. Also I've been in some rough spots and know that things don't work as well as you belive they will, when someone pulls a knife you don't usualy know untill you've already been stabbed (or cut).
  10. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2007 8:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thats why only criminals do it effeciently cause they are smart and they sit on the block taking courses in knife and gun attacks.
    Criminals don't do it efficiently - that's why more people survive attacks than die from them. Also, you're presenting a false argument by comparing knife and gun attacks to empty hand defenses; my two year old could accidentally hurt someone if he had a knife or a gun.

    You may not be taking the gun away to shoot him, curby - ASSUMING your technique works, you could just be taking it away to deny it to him/anyone else. You know - secure the scene.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
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