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  1. Smeagol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2006 8:51am


     Style: kickboxing, judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    KungFu-Company

    Die KungFu-Company bietet mittlerweile in 15 fränkischen Städten Unterricht in WingZun, einer effektiven und gesundheitsfördernden Kampfkunst, an. Außerdem kann in der KungFu-Company das Dautremay-Stockfechten gelernt oder ein Kurs im oneMove-System besucht werden. Das oneMove-System ist die einfachste Art der Selbstverteidigung, die an nur einem Wochenende erlernt werden kann.
    Translation(italics added by me):
    --
    The KungFu-Company provides lessons in WingZun in 15 fränkischen(a region within bavaria, I live there) Cities/Villages(don't know which fits better). WingZun is an effective and health-aiding martial art. You can also learn Dautremay Stickfighting within the KungFu-Company, or you can participate in a „oneMove-System“ course. The oneMove-System is the most easy way of self defence, which you can learn in just a weekend.
    --


    They also have a school IN MY VILLAGE. Which is amazing, considering there live only ~5000 people here(yes this town sucks).
    This is a McDojo, serving Bullshido(see „oneMove-System“), and spawning „offspring“ nearly EVERYwhere.

    Okay so what's up...
    I first got to know of this KungFu-Company a few years ago.
    A few classmates of my brother participate in the school in Erlangen. Participated, I don't know if that is still the case. Anyways, my brother and a friend(both were shotokan-karate only at the time, as was I, but other than me my brother's kind of naturally strong) sparred some of them, friendly, but without their Sifu/teacher/ass knowing. According to my brother he completely dominated them in sparring standup. They also crappled, according to him.
    I too participated once. We were only four, my brother, friend, me and one of the aforementioned classmates, so he was the only WingZun'er. We only did crappling-sparring, no standup. Although classmate tried to hit me in the face with his chainpunch once and said „ooh reflex, sorry, I SO didn't mean to do that“ ... then I threw him on his ass. Which is amazing, because, as said, I only had shotokan karate experience at that time(no, my judo as a child doesn't really count here). I wasn't submitted once, as I might add. I tapped because my cardio sucked much(more than now) and I couldn't go on, and I tapped once more because that fatty(if you read this: prove me wrong) was lying on my face and I couldn't stand his smell. But never ever a successful submission!
    After that their sifu/teacher/ass somehow got to know that they sparred people from other schools, and forbid it. Talking about blahblahblah insurance DONT SPAR OTHER PEOPLE OR I THROW YOU OUT. Okay I made up the throwing-out part. But only that.

    Fun fact: Their teacher is not allowed to teach them the „Steinform“(stone-form), because it is too deadly. The Dautremay(uber-sifu) forbid it.

    Okay, so that was back then.
    Now. Year 2006. I study physics at the „Friedrich-Alexander-University Erlangen-Nuremberg“, and enjoy taking judo in the universities sport curriculum. So now we have holidays, and I was bored, so I randomly surfed around, and ended up looking through the courses which will be available next semester, and making fun of, say, the “women's selfe defence“s picture. So I stumbled across this site(content translated for your reading pleasure):

    http://www5.rrze.uni-erlangen.de/spo.../_kung_fu.html

    1. WingZun KungFu:
    Das Ziel von WingZun ist es, sich im Ernstfall effektiv verteidigen zu können. Deshalb werden im Training nur wenige, aber dafür wirksame Techniken trainiert, die auch bei größeren und stärkeren Gegnern Wirkung zeigen. Hierbei wird die Abwehrtechnik gleichzeitig mit einem Angriff gekoppelt, indem die Kraft des Gegners genutzt wird.
    Als Trainingskleidung eignet sich eine lange Sporthose und Hallenschuhe bzw. dicke Socken. Der Kurs ist für beide Geschlechter, sowie für Anfänger und Fortgeschrittene geeignet.

    2. Dautremay Stockfechten:
    Das Dautremay Stockfechten umfasst die waffenlose Verteidigung gegen einen Angreifer mit Stock, Messer o.ä. sowie die Beherrschung des Stockes selbst. Schon nach wenigen Stunden werdet Ihr erste Erfolge sehen!
    Translation(italics added by me):
    --
    1. WingZun Kungfu:
    The goal of WingZun is to be able to effectively defend yourself in case of emergency(means: when you need to defend yourself). Because of that there are only few but working techniques trained, techniques which also work against larger or stronger opponents. Here the defensive technique is also an attack at the same time, using the strength of the opponent. You can use long sports trousers and indoor shoes and/or thick socks as training gear. The course is suitable for both sexes, as well as for beginners as for advanced students.

    2. Dautremay Stickfighting:
    Dautremay Stickfighting involves the unarmed defense against an attacker armed with a stick, knife or something similar, as well as the control of the stick itself. You will see early success just after a few lessons!
    --


    Dautremay-Stickfighting. Unarmed defence against an attacker with a knife. Yeah sure and pigs can fly.
    Their normal delusions aside – this is dangerous. Now, every martial art should be dangerous, for the one facing the martial artist, not the martial artist himself. And now imagine, puny WingZun'er faces bad guy with knife, thinks he can defend himself, so instead of running he gets sliced up. Bad for WingZun'er. Maybe good for the world, but bad for delusional WingZun'er.

    That aside, it is strange that a course from the university is at the WingZun school, and not on campus grounds. May be because there is no real „campus“ here, but there is a nice building for university sports.

    Okay, so basically what I wanted to do was go there with a magic marker and test if it does work. I mean hell, if it does work, where can I sign up?
    BUT: I don't feel like going in there alone. And – I can't video-tape myself, cause I'd be busy drawing pictures on WingZun'ers with my red marker.
    There are other reasons, too.
    One: There have been stories about right-extremists within that school. I don't know if true or not.
    Two: another story: At an exhibition, someone(small, tiny) called bullshit on WingZun, he basically said that a real attacker wouldn't do what those big muscular attackers did when the small girl defeated them, which was: one uncommitted attack, then do nothing. So „the Dautremay“(big, much flesh, a little fat, outweighted small guy by a LOT) called him in front, asked him to show what he meant, then beat him up(not using _ing _un, as I want to add), and taking this as proof for _ing _un
    I personally don't feel like going alone into a place where such people hang. Again I don't know if that story is true or not for sure.
    Three: I suck big time. I just lack the talent. I'm a *****. A little bit. Okay this is not a real reason.

    I asked several friends and my brother, but all had reasons not to go. „No time, don't care“ and so on.

    So:
    By any chance, is there somewhere in the area who could help?

    Anything else? Questions? Insults? Orders?

    I know this isn't really something I wrote here, but I want to contribute. Even if it's little.

    Excuse my weak english

    http://www.kungfu-company.de/
    Last edited by Phrost; 3/10/2006 8:26pm at .
  2. JPinAZ is offline

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    Arizona
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2006 5:31pm


     Style: HFY WC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First, I don’t see what you are calling Bullshido here? The only thing you have to go on is one of their student’s inability to grapple very effectively ‘in your opinion’ and you saw no stand-up game from him personally. From my understanding, Wing Tsun is ‘mainly’ a stand-up MA. Since I know nothing of what they teach I couldn’t comment more, but how can you base the effectiveness of an entire school on one students performance in an area they might not specialize in?

    A lot of what you post seems to be here-say, ‘stories’ and conjecture. Where is the PROOF of Bullshido? I don’t see where they are doing anything out of the ordinary.

    I also don’t see any problem with learning some techniques to protect your-self against a knife attack. Something is better than nothing right? Sure you could run, but what if you are leaving a friend or loved one behind? Or what if you are cornered? Or in a crowded room? You can’t run from every scenario (and yeah, running from a knife wielder probably is the best bet, but you don’t always have that option. And what if they are faster than you?)

    I am not sure what your goals are for going in there with a magic marker. To prove something to yourself? Even with ‘good knife defense skills’ the defender is still most likely going to get cut/nicked/etc. The point is to protect your vitals and give you a chance to disarm the knife wielder. There will most likely still be some blood. Using a marker isn’t going to prove much.

    Also, if you are looking for encouragement, what is it you plan to gain from entering their school - possibly with a camera, and giving pretty much an open challenge? Why are you wanting to go there at all? I am guessing you are going to get hurt, especially since you say you “suck big time”, “just lack the talent” and that you're "a *****.”. And, since you’re looking for people to come in there with you it sounds like you’re looking for trouble. Where I train, we don’t take those type of challenges lightly.

    Since you asked for advice, here’s mine: If you’re not intending on joining, they haven’t done anything to you or anyone you know personally, and you don’t know squat about them, leave it alone and don’t worry about it. If you keep with your plan, you are most likely going to get yourself into a situation you wish you weren’t in.
  3. Smeagol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2006 9:54am


     Style: kickboxing, judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where's the bullshido? I think you didn't read the part about the "oneMove-System"(learning effective selfe-defence in just a weekend), the "stone-form"-FunFact(not a joke, for real) and the claim to see success in weaponless defence against attacker armed with knife just after a few lessons, teaching crappling blahblahblah.

    So using a marker isn't going to prove much - shall I use a real knife? Nah thank you.

    What I intend to do is test it, simply. If it works I really think I'd join just for that class, because quite honestly, defending against an attacker with a knife is a skill worth having, and I imagine it's rare to find a school which teaches that, especially here in that area.
  4. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2006 3:40pm


     Style: HFY WC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really depends how one defines 'effective self defence'. If that just means a few effective moves to protect yourself, then sure, a weekend could be enough time to introduce that. Learning a whole system, that's something else.
    Was it you labeling it as a 'one-move system' or something they said on thier website?
    (there's a difference between your interpretation and what might actually have been said..)

    No idea about the stone form, maybe it is just too deadly to teach a newbie :) Or, maybe it's a little more advance for some people..
    What is the 'stone-form', do you know? If not, then how can you comment on it?

    I've been to a few day seminars that teach gun, knife and stick defence (maybe 6-8 hours for the day one, which is a good amount of time IMO). If you have a decent background in a MA, then it's easier to pick up the techniques/concepts. Even seeing people with very little or no baqckground can still grasp the ideas and play around with them. Will they be better off than they were before the seminar? Maybe. As long as it's presented in a way that doesn't build faulse confidence. No one can dodge a bullet and no one's skin is thick enough to deflect a knife, but that doesn't mean there aren't tools that can be learned to defend against weapons. It would be foolich to think otherwise. And, IMO, depending on how much info is being shown, sure 6 hours or all-day is more than enough to get the general ideas across.

    Still, all I read is your conjecture, assumptions, stories you've 'heard' etc. Sure, it might be a good idea to go in and experience it for yourself. But to knock something first, or call it "Bullshido" without have hany real first-hand experience or any idea what you're talking about is kinda pointless isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol
    What I intend to do is test it, simply. If it works I really think I'd join just for that class, because quite honestly, defending against an attacker with a knife is a skill worth having, and I imagine it's rare to find a school which teaches that, especially here in that area.
    Now, this is a lot different than what I heard in your first post, which was they are bullshido, and I'm going in with a camera and trying to prove it! But, since I have no ability or knowledge (skill) on how to do so, who's going to join me and back me up?. Good luck with that :)

    If you are genuinely interested in checking them out, what kind of approach are you using by coming here and calling them "bullshido" first? What kind of message would you be sending them if they read this prior to you going in there? I don't mean this in a negative way, but since you claim you 'suck', have no skill, etc, how can you speak from experience for your claims of Bullshido? You can't.
    Why not just go in and see what they are teaching, then come back and give yor opinion?

    If you are posting here just for the sole reason so you 'can contribute' (as you put it), I'd have to call Bullshido on you!

    JP
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 3/11/2006 3:53pm at .
  5. Smeagol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2006 5:48pm


     Style: kickboxing, judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    Really depends how one defines 'effective self defence'. If that just means a few effective moves to protect yourself, then sure, a weekend could be enough time to introduce that. Learning a whole system, that's something else.
    Was it you labeling it as a 'one-move system' or something they said on thier website?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean with your last sentence, I assume you are just missing an "is" in front of the "it" and am responding to that.
    1) No way you can learn to protect yourself in one weekend alone. Simply no.
    2) They themselves describe the "oneMove-System" as "the most easy way of self defence, which you can learn in just a weekend.", as I quoted above in german and translated for you.

    (there's a difference between your interpretation and what might actually have been said..)
    That's why I quoted it.

    No idea about the stone form, maybe it is just too deadly to teach a newbie :) Or, maybe it's a little more advance for some people..
    What is the 'stone-form', do you know? If not, then how can you comment on it?
    a student mentioned it while bragging about how deadly their WingZun is and that no-one can defeat them. Like "yeah and you know, there's one thing our teacher isn't even allowed to teach us. The Stone-Form, and the Dautremay forbid him to teach it to us, because it is too deadly.".

    I've been to a few day seminars that teach gun, knife and stick defence (maybe 6-8 hours for the day one, which is a good amount of time IMO). If you have a decent background in a MA, then it's easier to pick up the techniques/concepts. Even seeing people with very little or no baqckground can still grasp the ideas and play around with them. Will they be better off than they were before the seminar? Maybe. As long as it's presented in a way that doesn't build faulse confidence.
    that's the problem.
    No one can dodge a bullet and no one's skin is thick enough to deflect a knife, but that doesn't mean there aren't tools that can be learned to defend against weapons.
    If the attacker has _any_ idea on how to use a knife you need ****-big skills to defend yourself against that weaponless. Of course, if the attacker is an idiot...
    It would be foolich to think otherwise. And, IMO, depending on how much info is being shown, sure 6 hours or all-day is more than enough to get the general ideas across.
    The "Dautremay-Stickfighting" course is one hour per week, or two hours per week (if you want to travel 40km just for that hour of training), and does not only consist of weaponless defense against a knife but also against a stick and wielding the stick yourself. So you don't even get NEAR a full hour of knife-teaching, just impossible.

    Still, all I read is your conjecture, assumptions, stories you've 'heard' etc.
    everything not explicitely labeled "I don't know if this is true" or similar, I consider as dead-sure.
    Sure, it might be a good idea to go in and experience it for yourself. But to knock something first, or call it "Bullshido" without have hany real first-hand experience or any idea what you're talking about is kinda pointless isn't it?
    If i had any person to back me up, I had already done it, without posting first.


    Now, this is a lot different than what I heard in your first post,
    ORLY?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol
    Okay, so basically what I wanted to do was go there with a magic marker and test if it does work. I mean hell, if it does work, where can I sign up?
    If you are genuinely interested in checking them out, what kind of approach are you using by coming here and calling them "bullshido" first? What kind of message would you be sending them if they read this prior to you going in there? I don't mean this in a negative way, but since you claim you 'suck', have no skill, etc, how can you speak from experience for your claims of Bullshido? You can't.
    One doesn't have to be a chicken to be able to spot a foul egg. Or something like that.
    Why not just go in and see what they are teaching, then come back and give yor opinion?
    see above.

    If you are posting here just for the sole reason so you 'can contribute' (as you put it), I'd have to call Bullshido on you!
    oh yes?
    1) I don't remember putting it here for that "sole reason" or saying I did it just for that.
    2) even if: how would that make me bullshido. Iam curious.

    Smeagol

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