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  1. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 12:13pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
    I thought Iwama was better preserved.
    Tomiki and Shiodo were pre-WW2 Aikidoka while Saito was post-WW2. Tomiki began he training with Ueshiba in 1926 and Shiodo in 1932. Saito began his training in 1946.
  2. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 12:14pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote
    I saw Aikidoka preserved in amber once.
    It helps to keep their Hakama from getting wrinkled.
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 12:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I trained Yoshinkai under one of Shioda students. I also did a wee bit of Aikikai. Compared to Aikikai Yoshinkai is like full contact MMA.

    Compared to any other alive MA Yoshinkai still sucks in it's training methods.

    That said mixing good pre-war Aikido with something like Judo can lead to some interesting stuff.
  4. Coyote is offline
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    Your RBSD Cannot Save You Now.

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 1:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spanish Rapier/Epee/Foil

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    It helps to keep their Hakama from getting wrinkled.
    Scientists theorize that it was the Noretsu Aikido Eater, a breed of carniverous tree that preys on foolish Aikidoka. The Aikido Eater looks like an Aikidoka, and has been known to flourish in areas with too many Aikido schools.
    An Aikidoka, mistaking the branch for a wrist, grabs the tree in an attempt to ascertain it's skill level. When, after several days without a response, the Aikidoka tries to pull his hand away, he realizes that it has been covered with sap. Several weeks later, a fully preserved Aikidoka is excreded from the "rear" of the tree, a curiosity for MA practitioners and scientists alike.
  5. Shinshoryu is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 3:06pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    It isn't some ultimate realization, just a recognition of the what and why of Aikido's formation and dissemination. It isn't a combat art, it is an attempt to build a spiritual technology out of elements drawn from a combat art. His direct students knew it. Some agreed, some didn't and what they chose to teach of what they learned reflects their understandings.

    I'm going to make an assumption, which you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. You aren't terrbily familiar with the theoretical, philosophical or religious dimesnions of the Hindu yogic tradition and you've never read too deeply into Ueshiba's own writings on spiritual topics. Because of this you think I'm dismissing Aikido as "Oh, its just sissy bending exercises" when I call it a form of yoga. If so, you're wrong.

    A cursory reading of Ueshiba's writings on misogi is probably the best place to start, provided you have an understanding of the yogic traditions influence on Japanese religious thought. If you want a look at a more detailed look at Aikido as a form of yogic practice check out John Stevens' _Secrets of Aikido_ which doesn't work form the assumption that the reader is already familiar with either topic and might make a better first stop.


    To begin; no, I am not acquainted with the theoretical, philosophical… of Hindu yogic traditions. I do have read (maybe not as deeply as you) into Ueshiba’s own writings on spiritual topics (including John Stevens’ books, although not that particular one). And I gathered you were not dismissing aikido as “…sissy bending…” from your previous postings. In fact, that’s not what called my attention when I decided to reply, what I really loved was the part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    ...Basically, Aikido makes a lot more sense once you accept that it is a form of yoga that has pretty much nothing to do with combat.
    I think this is very interesting when, in the same book you mention, Stevens makes a description of aikido like this: “In each Aikido exercise, the partners take turns being the attacker and the defender, the winner and the loser. In this manner, a trainee learns much from experiencing both sides of the Aikido equation.” (Page #4, Paragraph #5.)

    I wonder who the attacker and the defender are in yoga???.

    Besides, given the fact that you practiced Tomiki Aikido, one of the styles known to focus the least on these philosophical teachings, I suppose this opinion of yours is done entirely on theoretical grounds, based on this single book (at least to what aikido concerns, not yoga). Please correct me if I’m wrong, and take the time to provide the rest of the bibliography (or any other media if there is).

    I suppose too, to make it short, that you believe that aikido ceased to be a martial art when it changed from fighting art (jutsu) to spiritual path (do). If this is the case, one could also say that when Kenjutsu changed to kendo, battojutsu changed to Iaido, Jojutsu changed to Jodo, etc, etc. they all stopped having anything to do with combat. And of course, let’s not forget from Jujutsu to Judo.

    I don’t believe Aikido to be a combat art either, but there’s a reason why it is still considered a martial art, budo, or whatever you want to call it, and saying “pretty much nothing to do with combat” is just a HUGE underestimation.

    Thank you for the bibliographic recommendation, I’ll get to it. And by the way, I’m still waiting for “the words of its founder” (not John Stevens’ interpretation).
  6. Fearless Ukemi is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 3:50pm


     Style: JJ of the B variety

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't consider aikido to be a combat art either. It is a specialist skill that can be used in a fight if you are good enough at fighting to set up your technique and not get the **** beat out of you.

    Aikido looks fake because of the way it is trained 99% of the time. Most people who practice are either not good enough to train "for real" and need to first learn the techniques with a cooperative partner which takes years in of itself (learning to crawl before running), or they are not interested in fighting at all and are just having a good time.
  7. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 4:37pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshoryu
    \
    I wonder who the attacker and the defender are in yoga???.
    With apologies to those who don't care of metaphysics, if you really want to know its a combination of the unit self and the Supreme Self (Atman) being in conflict, or more so looking to eliminate the conflict between them created by illusion.

    A good look at trying to understand this might be found in the Bhagavad-gita which attempts to teach a fair bit about yoga to a warrior who refuses to fight in the hopes that he will in fact enter the battle. The Sargeant translation is excellent, but I would avoid the ISCON book unless you've read a more accurate translation first. If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of hatha, raja, jnanna, etc. yoga and the conflict models associated it might be better done in PM. It might even be more fun.

    Besides, given the fact that you practiced Tomiki Aikido, one of the styles known to focus the least on these philosophical teachings, I suppose this opinion of yours is done entirely on theoretical grounds, based on this single book (at least to what aikido concerns, not yoga). Please correct me if I’m wrong, and take the time to provide the rest of the bibliography (or any other media if there is).
    Things will vary certainly based upon school and practitioner but I wouldn't go with your general characterization. Certainly it is less oriented towards the cultic aspects of Usheiba's legacy, like the Omoto material, but that does not mean that the spiritual elements in his ideas are ignored.

    Bibliographies are boring to read. PM if you really feel like pursuing this.

    I suppose too, to make it short, that you believe that aikido ceased to be a martial art when it changed from fighting art (jutsu) to spiritual path (do). If this is the case, one could also say that when Kenjutsu changed to kendo, battojutsu changed to Iaido, Jojutsu changed to Jodo, etc, etc. they all stopped having anything to do with combat. And of course, let’s not forget from Jujutsu to Judo.
    I'm totally with your characterization of my stance in this case. I'm pretty much on Donn Draeger's camp on this topic.

    Combat efficacy was the primary thing removed from Ancient Budo and Bujutsu with the rise of Gendai Budo. It doesn't mean that any of these Modern forms of Budo are inherently bad or useless or that they have nothing to offer someone interested in learning about non-lethal fighting. But there is a big difference between what Gendai Budo relates to and the actual realities of combat with that difference changing its order of magnitude depending on the art being discusses.

    This isn't just an issue of Gendai Budo however. Even before the rise of modernity in Japan the Ancient forms of Bujutsu were in decline and being studied mainly as a vanity practice by the ruling class, who were often little more then bureaucrats, attempting to lay claim to the legacies of their warrior ancestors. The modernizers of Budo did a serious service to preserving and increasing the overall prestige of these arts, particularly Kano, but in attempting to make them appealing to the Modern Japanese Gentleman (and later the Gentlemen of the rest of the world) a huge amount was compromised.

    I don’t believe Aikido to be a combat art either, but there’s a reason why it is still considered a martial art, budo, or whatever you want to call it, and saying “pretty much nothing to do with combat” is just a HUGE underestimation.
    It is a simplification, not necessarily an underestimation, nor a misrepesentation. More damage is done by the class of nimrods who try to market Aikido as some kind of super-cool bone real ultimate martial art then by the rather small group of people who see it as an interesting form of physical practice aimed at transforming awareness. In fact in that sense Aikido is probably one of the few Gendai Budo forms that actually qualifies as roughly what Ancient Budo was aiming to do as well, certainly more then Judo.
  8. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 4:51pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW the other day I saw a flyer in a church bulletin that said "What Martial Art would Jesus Do?" then it was an Ad for an Aikido Dojo.

    My friend showed it to me and all I said was "No wonder Jesus got killed"
  9. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 5:09pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshoryu
    To begin; no, I am not acquainted with the theoretical, philosophical… of Hindu yogic traditions.
    Just a quick note to back-up Fitz' argument. My fiance is a yoga instructor and has studied Hinduism fairly intensely, so I was treated at one point to a harsh recrimination when I dismissed yoga as "Slow Exercise".

    Essentially, yoga was/is an integral part of Hindu worship. The yoga you see in Bikram videos and trendy gyms is NOT the way yoga was originally practiced. Yoga was originally developed as a physical expression of divine inspiration...a way for mortals to mimic the movements of the gods to some extent.

    Basically, back in the day (or even currently, as I haven't been to India) you didn't do Yoga unless you were deeply religious...and even then, Yoga was akin to Islamic bowing, Christian genuflecting, and Buddhist meditation. It was a physical expression of divinity...not a quick and relaxing way to stay in shape.

    In this sense, I think the comparison to Aikido is very apt. Aikido, in a sense, reflects a physical representation of the creator's spiritual beliefs.

    When you think of it this way, Aikido seems more like "Applied Spirituality" than "Silly Ineffective Martial Art".
  10. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2006 5:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote
    Scientists theorize that it was the Noretsu Aikido Eater, a breed of carniverous tree that preys on foolish Aikidoka. The Aikido Eater looks like an Aikidoka, and has been known to flourish in areas with too many Aikido schools.
    An Aikidoka, mistaking the branch for a wrist, grabs the tree in an attempt to ascertain it's skill level. When, after several days without a response, the Aikidoka tries to pull his hand away, he realizes that it has been covered with sap. Several weeks later, a fully preserved Aikidoka is excreded from the "rear" of the tree, a curiosity for MA practitioners and scientists alike.
    That explains a lot
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
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