Even Aikidoka think Aikido is fake

[UltimateGaijin]

and it takes forever to learn"

then it's not really intended for selfdefense is it?

[Fearless Ukemi]

That is a very good point, i practice aikido and i also think that the mayority of the aikido that is seen around (specially on the net) is very weak. The aikido i practice is very hard and combat oriented. There isn't much of this gentle flowy stuff that you always see and laught at.

You know you're practicing good aikido when you get asked to "tone it down", or even to leave at seminars.

[Fearless Ukemi]

Yes, and he bitched about it fiercely.

The (paraphrased) quote i remember read something like:

"I have forgered a new path, but when I look back, noone is following me!"

Aikido is O-Sensei-owned!

It is documented that he walked into the Hombu dojo and screamed "What you people are doing is not aikido". You really do have to know how to fight to make aikido work, as well as having serious dedication to the art. I guess if you can't learn it and use it effectively in 6 months, it's worthless according to some people. Another problem is that it is so dayumn hard to find a good dojo.

[Gezere]

That's a pretty gross thing to say about Aikido when (I understand) the original students of O-Sensei were actually, like, able to fight.

Yes they were all accomplished Judoka sent to train with Ueshiba by Kano.

[Fitz]

Would you mind quoting the words of the Founder that helped you (but none of his direct students as far as I know) realize this ultimate truth?.

It isn't some ultimate realization, just a recognition of the what and why of Aikido's formation and dissemination. It isn't a combat art, it is an attempt to build a spiritual technology out of elements drawn from a combat art. His direct students knew it. Some agreed, some didn't and what they chose to teach of what they learned reflects their understandings.

I'm going to make an assumption, which you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. You aren't terrbily familiar with the theoretical, philosophical or religious dimesnions of the Hindu yogic tradition and you've never read too deeply into Ueshiba's own writings on spiritual topics. Because of this you think I'm dismissing Aikido as "Oh, its just sissy bending exercises" when I call it a form of yoga. If so, you're wrong.

A cursory reading of Ueshiba's writings on misogi is probably the best place to start, provided you have an understanding of the yogic traditions influence on Japanese religious thought. If you want a look at a more detailed look at Aikido as a form of yogic practice check out John Stevens' _Secrets of Aikido_ which doesn't work form the assumption that the reader is already familiar with either topic and might make a better first stop.

[FictionPimp]

It isn't some ultimate realization, just a recognition of the what and why of Aikido's formation and dissemination. It isn't a combat art, it is an attempt to build a spiritual technology out of elements drawn from a combat art. His direct students knew it. Some agreed, some didn't and what they chose to teach of what they learned reflects their understandings.

I'm going to make an assumption, which you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. You aren't terrbily familiar with the theoretical, philosophical or religious dimesnions of the Hindu yogic tradition and you've never read too deeply into Ueshiba's own writings on spiritual topics. Because of this you think I'm dismissing Aikido as "Oh, its just sissy bending exercises" when I call it a form of yoga. If so, you're wrong.

A cursory reading of Ueshiba's writings on misogi is probably the best place to start, provided you have an understanding of the yogic traditions influence on Japanese religious thought. If you want a look at a more detailed look at Aikido as a form of yogic practice check out John Stevens' _Secrets of Aikido_ which doesn't work form the assumption that the reader is already familiar with either topic and might make a better first stop.

Wow thats a mouthful to say. But your right, aikido is about teaching a way to live, not a way to fight. The problem is that many people want some rare unknown secret knowedge to make them bad ass, and for some reason they think they can get it from aikido, or some other little known or understood art. They want it so badly they look past the basic truths like all of the original students of aikido were great martial artists before aikido. And that Ueshiba was a great martial artist before he even started teaching what we would call aikido. I've often gotten into long discussions with my instructors about these issues. I feel that ueshiba tried to remove aikido's martial component before his death, and that he may of viewed it as a layover from his youth. Some people took this really far (like Tohei) and made aikido so soft that it really is only a method of walking meditation. Others like tomiki tried to perseve the martial aspect to some degree (but it should be noted that tomiki was a very eairly student of ueshiba, and really didnt' stay around all that long before going out on his own with Ueshiba's blessing *as I understand*).

As I begin my journey into judo and juijutsu I see how these movments I learned in aikido are ment to be used. Because of the lack of martial training (sparing and/or competition) pieces of the techniques have given way to more flowery motions. For example, I dont belive I have been taught any leg reaps or sweeps in aikido (maybe one or two at most). However, I can see many techniques where I am in the position, and it would help the throw if I was to block, sweep, or reap a leg. However, I am sure I would be told this is agressive and not in the spirit of aikido. I would be told it is unessisary if the technique is done with proper centering and leading because the oponents balance will already be broken and he will have no choice but to fall. I think the real reason is you can't do a nice fall when your leg is being reaped. Instead you take a nice hard breakfall.

I am by no means an aikido expert. I'm not even near my 1st dan rank. But I do feel that having some previous training in a art that has hard sparing (like judo or juijutsu) is vital to understanding the martial aspects of aikido as much as having a dojo with an open minded instructor. I am lucky to have an instructor who is open minded, supports my efforts to cross train, allow sparing in any range of combat (after the normal class) and has a background in judo/juijutsu.

Aikido definatly will not make you a fighter. I know Ueshiba had great fighters at his school, but I dont think he intended to train great fighters. But rather intended to show them a way to refine and perfect their technique. I guess the quesion is not what aikido was supose to offer to a newbie, but what it was supose to offer to a guy with 10 years of judo experiance. However, even that may be lost beyond our reach. Aikido is already on its way out of the martial arts and into the realm of meditation like most tai chi or yoga. There is nothing wrong wtih that as long as you understand that. I dont take aikido to learn how to fight. I take bjj and judo for that.

I have to stop writting these long winded ,poorly spell checked, rambling posts.

[Coyote]

Segal, dude. Norris has nothing to do with Aikido.

But the question was, "who would be a white guy that you could cast as a japanese guy".
Since Segal is the only Aikido practitioner I could think of, the only other one that I could come up with was Norris. Maybe Van Damme would take the role.
I love how there is always a sequence in his movies where his master ties ropes to his legs and pulls them apart so that he can show off his splits.

Van Damme: (Grunting with pain) Master!...ugh...what...is this...ugh...training...called...ugh...?

Wisened Japanese Man: Torture.

[Fitz]

Wow thats a mouthful to say.

I do that a lot.

Some people took this really far (like Tohei) and made aikido so soft that it really is only a method of walking meditation. Others like tomiki tried to perseve the martial aspect to some degree (but it should be noted that tomiki was a very eairly student of ueshiba, and really didnt' stay around all that long before going out on his own with Ueshiba's blessing *as I understand*).

To some extent elements of Tomiki Aikido have preserved portions of it, mostly in the non-randori techniques and waza. You see a lot fo early Aikido better preserved in Yoshinkan.

[Mr. Jones]

I do that a lot.



To some extent elements of Tomiki Aikido have preserved portions of it, mostly in the non-randori techniques and waza. You see a lot fo early Aikido better preserved in Yoshinkan.

I thought Iwama was better preserved.

[Coyote]

I saw Aikidoka preserved in amber once.