Even Aikidoka think Aikido is fake

**DCS** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 11:38am

Originally Posted by Coyote

First time.
Does he always sound like that?

More or less: Usually a polite guy with bad english skills.

Back on topic, and trying to clarify some points about Aikido i've read in this thread.

About aikido styles:

There are different ways of practising aikido, even in the same organizations (and there are a lot of them); saying one is a Tomiki, Aikikai, Iwama, Yoshinkan... sub-style practitioner doesn't imply no badasness nor fruitiness by default.

However, there are differences in the training methodology between sub-styles, mostly based on how the aikido was trained when the founder of the sub-style learned Aikido from Ueshiba and his background in martial arts subsequent evolution once left training with the founder.

For instance:

There are differences between pre-war (Yoshinkan) Aikido: harder tecnique, still very simmilar to DRAJJ (Ueshiba was a DRAJJ instructor in the 40's)

Post-war (Iwama), from 1942 to early 60's: a bit less static training than Yoshinkan but with a lot of weapons training. It was a period when Ueshiba lived in the country experimenting techniques and the relationship between empty hands and weapons (mostly sword and staff). I like to call Iwama "redneck aikido" because the typical students at this time were country people used to work in farms in the hard times of post war Japan (not the white collars who attended the Tokyo dojo).

Post war (Aikikai): Since Ueshiba went to live in Iwama and today's bigger organization. Tokio based, leaded by Ueshiba's son Kishomaru with Tohei as technical advisor: Kishomaru started to use Aikido as a business, and in the 60's started the international expansion of his view of "Aikido Inc.": A "martial art" for everybody, based in harmony, cooperation, happy people and things like that. Cause the hippieness of these times can be said that westerners easily went into that thing and "thanks" to him Aikido is widely practised Kisshomaru's way.

Of course there are other sub-styles like the developed by Tomiki (judo badass) who tried (succesfullly imho) to apply Kano's methodology to aikido, but without commercial success. Or Mochizuki, another judo guy sent by Kano to study under Ueshiba who founded Yoseikan Budo, a mix of akido, judo, karate and weapons who also has sparring competitions with a decent amount of contact.

And i have forgot a lot of other people because i don't want to start with aikido politics.

IMO, like i said before, Aikido can be used for fighting/self defense because the techniques are basically old school Japanese Jujutsu, but the way it's generally teached and trained puts more weight on the student who learns it with fighting purposes in mind.

If the practitioner doesn't have a background in, let's say for instance, Judo (like Abbe, Tomiki, Mochizuki, Shioda and another certified Aikido badasses) because living and training with Ueshiba for near 25 years like Saito is not possible anymore, or crosstrains in arts with aliveness in it's training, unless he's a fucking genius with amazing natural skills, with Aikido only he's going to be fucked in any figth against a semi-competent opponent.

Other thing is Aikido as fitness, social relation, zen in movement and assorted fruitinessess. Of course there are people who have fun travellling to "teh Moons Of Jupiter" and enjoy this type of Aikido, but don't thing you are a fighter nor act like one, because you aren't.

**DCS** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 11:40am

Originally Posted by Coyote

As for me "going to **** myself", I must say that I cannot comply with your request. Despite the flexibility imparted by my training, I am unable to reach.

Nice way to say "my pee pee is small"

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 11:43am

My god the threads suck right now. not even any good flame wars to jump in on. No trolls, no real name calling...Aikido v TKD does not count. Oh this is misserable.

**Coyote** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:09pm

Originally Posted by DCS

Nice way to say "my pee pee is small"

Dude, no one can reach.
Have you never seen Clerks?
Actually, that is not intirely true.
Once, when my dad was in the Air Force, he knew a huge black dude that he says could reach. He says that it is a sight that haunts him to this very day, no matter how desperately he tries to eliminate it. Only the quiet fires of senility will cleanse him of the nastyness.

P.S. It is big enough for your mom, girlfriend, and pets. BOOO-YAH!!!

**Coyote** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:11pm

Originally Posted by wagamichi

My god the threads suck right now. not even any good flame wars to jump in on. No trolls, no real name calling...Aikido v TKD does not count. Oh this is misserable.

We have hit a dry spell. I blame spring break.
If you want to, you could start a fight. Or start a fire. Or start a fight over where to start a fire. Or just decide to start a lot of fires.

I can almost feel my brain dying...

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:26pm

Originally Posted by Coyote

We have hit a dry spell. I blame spring break.
If you want to, you could start a fight. Or start a fire. Or start a fight over where to start a fire. Or just decide to start a lot of fires.

I can almost feel my brain dying...

I thought about starting an I can kick your ass train wreck, but it would just end up with a double **** you...WE need something good to set our Teath in. Aikido is not going to do it. It is like the amish of the Ma world.

**Coyote** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:32pm

What is with all the hostility?
I don't have any problem with you.
Why am I a train wreck?
My life seems pretty together.

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:34pm

Originally Posted by Coyote

What is with all the hostility?
I don't have any problem with you.
Why am I a train wreck?
My life seems pretty together.

No hostility. Just board.

**Tacitus** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:39pm

Daito-ryu is effective, but it takes a long time to learn. Back in the day, people actually had the time and means to sit around tossing each other around the dojo all day long. Hence, it didn't really matter if it took ten thousand hours to get good at what you were doing... you had the time to put into it. Consider it a "compound interest" style. :P

I'm going to echo what Lord Asia said about this, but also provide a little more detail as I have actually trained SOME DRAJJ and am somewhat familiar with it's methods. This will be a long post, but I hope to clear up some of the confusion about this little known style, which most aikidoka have never seen, let alone trained in, yet constantly talk about.

The unarmed techniques of DRAJJ are divided into three sections:

1) Jujitsu (Shiden Mokuroku), 118 techniques

2) Aikinojutsu, 53 techniques

3) Aikijujitsu, something above 2000 techniques

When a student begins to learn to DRAJJ, he tradionally was taught the jujitsu part of the curriculum first. This is a fact often overlooked by many, but actually very important. The jujitsu techniques are very linear, and are fairly typical of most koryu arts. These take up about a year or two, sometimes more, of training. When training a soldier, who might see battle at any point, one wants him to be able to learn how to kill as quickly as possible, and these techniques are meant to be learned quickly for this very reason. This kind of no-nonsense, linear techniques complete with strikes, kicks, chokes, breaks, is one of the main things missing from ALL kinds of aikido. Balance is broken by strikes preceeding grappling.

Aikinojutsu are techniques that rely on 'aiki'. Aiki in DRAJJ is explained as proper way of holding your body and angle of attack based upon opponent. THere is nothing metaphysical about it. It is similar to sword work, with the difference between a technique working and failing being at times a few inches. Should a technique fail, one can fall back on the jujitsu. There are no strikes in most of these techniques.

Aikijujitsu are the techniques which combine atemi with 'aiki' (aiki meaning, once again, a more refined sense of angles of attack and posture, timing). The movements are still much more linear, and though I myself never learned any of these, I had some preformed on me while resisting. They hurt. The strikes hurt. The locks hurt.

Once a student moves on to aikijujitsu techniques, he will use 'aiki' with even the jujitsu techniques, as well as the atemi.

I don't think you could jump into DRAJJ and begin learning the Aikijujitsu techniques, because the idea is to get to that point after years of understanding the basics of control. However, some schools of DRAJJ do teach these techniques first now, skipping over the jj because this is what people want. For this reason alot of DRAJJ resembles aikido and is about as effective (not very).

Aikido presuposes a knowledge of 'basics', and therefore students never learn how to make the aiki techniques work, nor what aiki even is. As Lord Asia said, the best aikido practioners were those who came from judo. In this context, this fact makes perfect sense.

DRAJJ is often called a 'battlefield art', and I can see why. When preforming some of the techniques I can picture a samurai who has been given a specific target moving through the lines to kill him, evading others along the way.

That's it.

**Coyote** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 12:41pm

I understand entirely.
Most of the fights I get into on this site are out of boredom.
Your post did give me one idea though. Maybe somebody should start an I Can Kick Your Ass Forum here.
On second thought, that is a stupid idea. Most of the people here either get along or have never met one another.
I have been thinking of starting a thread on whether McDojos are bad or not.