Multiple opponents and gun and knife disarms

[Mjelva]

You forgot to mention that if he has a gun in one hand and a dildo in the other then you're fucked either way.

Or both ways.

[Kungfoolss]

I ask this because even with a year and half of mma training while I still own the noobs, its not like I do it in 10 seconds or anything, I still have to work to do it and maybee tap them in like minute or so if I am quick. I just dont see how anyone could defeat two very strong and determined opponents

MMA is by definition a sports related endeavor, so naturally when you introduce another opponent to the mix, it becomes patently “unfair.”

Even if you look at UFC 1, it still took Royce generally at least 1 min to dispatch his opponents, and he dominated everybody, and was a jui-jitsu black belt at the time. That is way to long with two guys trying to beat the crap out you.

The UFC’s are sports competitions and are often mistaken by its proponents as reality. There are no rules outside of the octagon. If an individual wants to pull a knife out while you’re attempting to put them into a submission hold on the street, he’s probably going to stab you with it if he can.

The gun and knife disarms I am also skeptical of, as they are both exteremly deadly weapons.

If you lack a very basic understanding of the sciences and fundamental knowledgebase regarding it this attitude would not be surprising.

I feel that the best advice for multiple opponents, guns and knives is to arm yourself or run.

That’s an overly broad observation isn’t it? Surely, you realize the variables alone are a determinant factor on an individuals chosen course of action. When I say variables I mean: Is there a single opponent armed with a knife, or are there two of them and only one of them is armed or perhaps both? What is the mindset of the attacker/s, are they nervous, aggressive or psychotic? What is their proximity to yourself and what type of weapon are they employing at that given distance? Clearly, you’re asking a question that has just too many variables content with. Unless you’re capable of a specific query to your fears, you’re going to get the usual smart ass remarks and pointless advice from the membership here.

What are you guys/gals thoughts on guns, knife, and multiple opponent training?

I don’t care what sort of system you learn, if you aren’t instructed in a system that advocates principles that apply universally to handle any combination of variables, any approach that is technique-driven will be doomed to failure and you will have wasted your time.

Reason I ask is that my school focuses on mma competitions, not specifically "self defense", but I feel that the are essentially the same thing, with a few exceptions. But we dont train guns, knives, or multiple opponents, am I missing something because of this? I personally dont feel I am but hey, you never know.

Obviously, you instruction is inadequate otherwise you’d have never bothered posing the question.

[Amkreet]

Actually I was going to recant my statement and refer to Geijhan's clarification, but I think I'll stand by it now. Your "specific situation" is desperately vague, and got not one bit clearer when you tried to defend your position. Plainly put there is no technique that offers you an advantage. Sure there are ways to disarm someone that might nor be covered by most martial arts systems, but the raw facts of the matter don't change one bit. I'm positive I can also find no shortage of anecdotal evidence of people with absolutely no martial arts training surving knife attacks. I can't think of anything else about your "training for self defense" than it being irresponsible so I'll ask you to not tell me how to post and be more responsive to others' views. At least you know you have a bias, I doubt you can truly appreciate the degree however.

Yea, actually... I did get more specific. You want the story, word for word? Somehow, my friend (Dave), managed to offend a guy in a bar in San Jose. Said guy waited around until Dave and his girl were ready to leave, and he came at Dave in the parking lot with a pocket knife with a two inch serrated blade. Dave used some small joint manipulation (Similar to Chin Na of some Mantis... although I don't think he's taken Kung Fu at any point) in order to break the attacker's wrist. When his wrist broke, he dropped the knife and backed off. Dave picked up the knife and pointed it at him; the dude ran away. I'm not saying that "Locking Gate A"(Which is a knife defense technique taught in Shou Shu) would work. Infact, Locking Gate A blows. What I AM saying is that that small joint manipulation that he learned somewhere in his RoTC or military training may have very well saved his life.

I agree with EVERYONE in this thread. I've seen people get stabbed before - in a high school fight, no less. If someone has a gun or a knife, your best bet is to get the **** out or appease them in some way so you don't get stabbed/shot. HOWEVER, in Dave's situation, his knowledge helped him get out of a hairy situation. Sure I have a bias, I admitted it - but learning martial arts will help you chances a lot, assuming you get in an inescapable situation. I agree with the people here who say the exact, coreographed sequence of moves that you learn from a McDojo against a knife attack may not work as you expect it to - but it could possibly give you more of a fighing chance when you may have had none previously. Why not at least respect it for what it is? It's basic self defense that has the chance to help you save your own ass.

[Tenebrous]

The multiple opponents thing is a fantasy that looks good in movies, period.

Knife sparring and unarmed v. knife sparring has pretty much shown me that I'd best run from unarmed v. knife if I have the option. Only the most n00b opponents will let you control their knife arm for even a second, let alone long enough to disarm them. I've wtfpwned a couple of very inept people but even first timers start attacking your grabbing/trapping/controlling arm/hand after you make a couple of grab attempts. Run or distract them and run.

Guns? Good luck. If you're cornered or they're trying to abduct you, fighting is better than certain death. Running? Well, there's this saying "rush a gun, run from a knife". The idea being that a knife is extremely short range but a gun will get you shot in the back so you might as well attempt to control the gun. I remember seeing some FBI stats on street shootings a couple of years ago that indicated that most people couldn't shoot for dick under stressful conditions, with huge miss rates even under 10 ft. So assuming I'm remembering it correctly, I still don't know if I'd want to move in to attempt to control a gun at close range and get point-blanked or sprint my ass off around a corner and get shot in the back. The odds seem terrible either way.

[Dagon Akujin]

This is how a real knife fight goes:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...m+carey+karate

Dagon Akujin

"However, like a lot of beginning students (a.k.a. muggers, robbers, untrained people on the street) you attacked me wrong."

[Darkpaladin]

Best knife defense: a bigger knife

[Jebuyaga]

Jim Carey was right about one thing though... The way he showed the woman to perform her knife attacks; that really seems to be the way many instructors believe attacks to occur.

[schadenfreude]

As far as multiple attackers, i'd like to think the training would be more geared to escape. Such as how to avoid getting penned in, and bum rushed. IMO, anyone selling you on some Chuck Norris style group ass beatings is selling snake oil.

Regarding gun/knife disarms, i think it would be irresponsible for anyone to teach these techniques as a first line of defense. Give him the keys/wallet and carry on. I do, however, think these tecniques should be taught so people at least have a chance when presented with a lose/lose situation. Such as "get in the car". As we all know, travel to a secondary crime scene=you are a dead mofo. If you know disarm techs, at least you have a shot at getting out alive. Done :beatdead:

[Ryno]

Multiple attackers can be done, if your fighting skill is far beyond that of your opponents, your cardio is far beyond that of your opponents, and you are far more aggressive than they are.

Notice I say can be done, not that you will always be successful.