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  1. Otaku Waffle is offline
    Otaku Waffle's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 6:29am


     Style: Kali/Jun Fan/CSW

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neildo
    Damn. That sucks dude.

    I never have money to carry, and I'd rather get shot trying to disarm the SOB than go through the hassle of replacing all my I.D. and stuff.
    It was quite the hassle getting everything replaced, but at least I didn't get shot. And yes, I know guns aren't auto-kills but I'd still rather keep my body as lead-free as possible.

    Also, I was carrying next to no money (college student at the time) so I really wasn't going to risk getting shot for 100 Belgian franks (2.5 euro nowadays).

    Edit: Also, Hurt, your "I was going to recant" is clarification enough, thanks. :-)
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 6:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStalyon
    The whole idea of running from a guy with a gun/knife, is if your already point black next to him, running would only stab/shoot you in the back.
    If you have something better to say than ^^^^^ then bring it to the table becouse that may be but what the **** you gonna tell people or show people ? No technique I know of will work sure enough for me to ramble on about over the internet ... some skill sets have higher success rates than others when used by the average joe , but I can only tell you what has served me which is:
    • hauling ass
    • or compliance
    , take your pick with your own life man .

    If you have to fight then by all means ThrowtheFuckDown like you mean it , but this should all be pretty common sense and I dont understand why you can't grasp this .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 7:41am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I think handing them your wallet and car keys is the best knife/gun defence.
    I completely agree with you. Unfortunately since you live so far away from me I can't really do any consistent training with you on those techniques. That's unfortunate, because I could use some extra money and another car.
  4. RobG is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 8:48am


     Style: casual

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK...my guest is on her way home.

    I wish I found this thread earlier....but have a few comments - from real time experience and the LEO stats in academy teaching.

    Guns are the equalizers...but it really depends on the situation. Really does. In NYC - a thugga buys a jammie and only gets a single load of bullets....they rarely seem to find a way to get a box of shells -- hence, never really having fired a handgun before they try to blast ya...the kick back hurts em and they have a few moments of trigger 'yank'...not the real deal squeeze of proper target alignment. They pop caps - and really miss ALOT! So do range trained LEO's - far too often. When you read the paper - look at the numbers - 42 shots and only 8 hits?

    In a hallway?

    AND anyone that actually puts a gun to yer head deserves to get beaten like a rented mule. Like a sharp edge -- they have a certain use..but body contact is essentially a threat and intimidation...but not hoiw these weapons are best used at all.

    You present a weapon only if you intned to use it - showing it is two sided....from a personal fear point = "LOOK - I could kill ya..I gotta weapon..look at it...be afraid....I am afraid also but want whatever io wnat from you - (PLEASE) give it up!".

    From a more pro point: 'LOOK - I dont wanna kill ya...please dont force me to do so..too many reports to write to cover my ass. I have a family to feed -dont take 'days' from me".

    Guns and knives have no inherent power on their own - they are in-animate things. No purpose but the purpose of the weilder.

    And relative skill levels of the weilder means alot.

    Sorta like trained and experienced BBJers doing a triangle choke as opposoed to someone who saw it on a movie/dvd track..but never learned how to do a good triangle.

    IF your faced with someone that REALLY wants ya dead...he will either shoot you from a distance or slice ya without warning in a close venue. He does not want to hear you beg...wants only you dead. The opnes that actually threaten first - or touch close with these tools...have a more important thing desired. Control and fear of/from you...yeah, they might wanna kill ya eventually - maybe. But real killers ---- KILL. Coldly....and just drop you cold...dont care if you ever know why the lights went out. Just dont care at all.

    Kinda like snipers, in a way.

    If you ask an spec forces or swat sniper about such close contact to the body before firing....they will go 'it does not compute'. Their method is distance, unseen and your dead where you stand before you know it.

    I have seen that barrel pointed sincerely at me a coupla times in life -- and the lil barrel for the bullet - when its staring at you - seems as big as a tunnel. Looks HUGE! Like a bowlking ball/bullet could come your way...luckily, all the 2 who pointed real bullets at me wanted was my agreement. BUT - if it was my money and ID? Yep - ya can have it!

    I had an uncle who used to actually carry money in 2 different front pockets...the right had the big BUX - he liked to carry about two grand with him at all times. The left? about 30 bux mostly in 5 and singles. He was a physically frail man -- and had been mugged a few times..and when some thugfucka did try to rob him..he would go for the left pocket and toss the loose bux the attackers way and as the greenbacks showered to the ground...he would run away as fast as his spindly legs could GO! Every mugger (there were 3 incidents like this while I knew him) the thieves took the money and left. They were using psy intimidation on an old man...all they wanted was money...not his very life.

    BUT - every situation is different and individual results may vary.


    Same for the 'OMG' group attack.

    There are ways to hedge ones bets in such things...and it dont take a rocket scientist to see this, does it?

    My uncle Ben figured a way out of such things....called it his 'mugger tax'. I can many times be the same in mass attack. Different tjings to do - but not hard to work on.

    Is it?

    ALL real world attacks have certain things you could work with - but ALL are individual and need a point of flexible outlook...to deal fairly well with such things.

    individual results WILL vary...widely.

    One size does NOT fit all.
  5. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 9:19am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    Imagine the crickets chirping if this thread was locked to anyone who had never had a gun pulled on them.
    ROFLOL! Exactly. We should encourage those morons to keep practicing these things, and one day they may win a Darwin Award. ;)
  6. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 9:21am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStalyon
    The whole idea of running from a guy with a gun/knife, is if your already point black next to him, running would only stab/shoot you in the back.
    Then fight him, dude, fight him. Practice those disarms. <Soon to be eliminated from gene pool>
  7. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 10:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Couple points building off of everyone's posts.

    1. Compliance is the best bet, within reason. The key thing you never do is leave the scene. If someone is forcing you to leave with a weapon (or the threat of a weapon) you are fucked. Period. They are taking you to a place where they feel safer doing things. Basically you are dead. So at that point you need to fight. There can be no question about that.

    The general rules of weapon defense are:

    1. Get off of (and preferably outside/past) the weapon's line of attack
    2. Isolate and check the weapon (to know where it is).
    3. Stun/disrupt the attack.
    4. Control the weapon (preferably at the elbow... this does not mean either disarm or wrestle).
    5. PUNISH THE BODY (preferably the head) as radically, definatively, and quickly as possible.
    6. Disarm if necessary
    7. Get the heck of of dodge.

    These are the optimal progression of these steps, but you can mix and match as needed, blending one step into the other.

    On running, as Rob suggested, most people can't hit the broadside of a barn let alone a running target. So you chances are better running than staying in. Running past is typically the best option.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  8. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 11:24am


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People are making some nice points. Here's my little rambling tirade:

    90%+ of the weaponse defense curriculums out there are bullshit. This is particularly true for gun defense, as it is difficult to simulate. Still, many people's conception about the knife is just wrong. Example:

    I get a new student coming in, who came from a knife background. Worked at a knife shop, went to the shows, hung out with knife people, read the books, etc., etc. Anyway, he was working some sticks with us, and began asking about knife stuff. He stated that he was pretty confident in his (unarmed) knife defense, having dealt with blades so long. So I ask him "You want to give me a shot.?" To which he agreed. I told him to do whatever he had to do to defend. If he needed to hit me or whatever, then that was fine.

    Now I'm decent sized, but this guy is fucking huge, at 6'5, maybe 290. He was a bit out of shape, but really strong. So, I grab my aluminum training blade (slightly rounded tip), walk right up to him, then proceed to stab him repeatedly. He tries to grab my arm, but I just check his hands down, then continue to stab him. He tries to grab me, I slash his arm, angle out, and continue stabbing him repeatedly. He tries to punch at me, I slash his arm, and stab him repeatedly. This all took well less than a minute, and by then he was winded.

    We step back, and he says "I had no idea." At which point, I verified that the light bulb going on in his head was justified. Knife defense is not clean and easy.

    Much of the knife defense that I see taught is completely unrealistic. It is often a complex multi-step defense against a ridiculously simple attack which is not at all realistic. This is total bullshido, and should be dismissed.

    Other times it is fancy slashing knife dueling, that is taught in some sort of supposedly live manner, but where neither one of the people training actually seem to be trying to kill each other. "Oh, if you do this, I can flip the knife over to a wing block slash, then jump away! Tee hee!"

    This seems to be really common amongst many of the FMA practitioners that are so-called knife experts, but I find it totally ridiculous. If someone is fucking around with me like that, doing fancy little slashing and jumping away, but not trying to gut me in a real confrontation, I would not fucking chase them and let them toy with me. I would just run the **** away.

    Knowing how to defend yourself against someone who is coming at you with a knife, and fully intent on killing you is a worthwhile skill, albeit it is a situation that you will probably never have to deal with. There are instructors who actually do teach in this manner, but you will quickly find that the solution is not so simple as many others would have you believe. Knife defense against a determined attacker will be messy. You will get cut. You need to be physically aggressive, and not **** around. You need to knock the **** out of your opponent to get him out of his offensive mindset. But most importantly...

    You need to run the **** away if there is any avenue for escape whatsoever.

    If you find yourself going against an armed assailant, try to feel out the situation. Does he just want my money? If so, just give it to him. Is he just trying to scare me? Be cool. Apologize for offending him. Or is he seriously intent on fucking you up due to insult or the fact that he's a psycho? If so, look for an avenue for escape first. If there is none, then be ready to throw down and not **** around. It is life or death. See Matt's little list for some good basic principles.
  9. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 1:30pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    Imagine the crickets chirping if this thread was locked to anyone who had never had a gun pulled on them.

    Not a gun, but I've had knives drawn on me- First time it happened was when my friend got into a fight over another friends house- some wackjob was all pissed off that the kid fought (and that he was talking ****) that he went to his car to get his knife and I stood between him and my friend trying to talk him down.

    Then I crescent kicked that **** out of his hand :ninjadanc :lame:
  10. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2006 1:47pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Walking home from a coffeeshop with cup in hand, I had a guy ride up behind me on a bike and pull a gun. I still feel like a moron because I saw it coming from a mile away, but somehow convinced myself it was paranoia. Felt a chill when he got close by, and I still just stepped aside as if making room for him on the sidewalk, but didn't turn around to face him until he whistled.

    Seeing it, I just felt empty, and a little cold. Despite this, I was suprised to feel relatively mentally coherent, which I DO attribute to some specific components of my training at that point. At first I felt paralyzed, but I was making decisions, speaking clearly, and moving physically, though it seemed almost out-of-body.

    I couldn't make out the gun too well other than being a black automatic (could have been an airsoft for all I know), but I noted the guy was maybe 17-18, was WAY too close for "proper" pistol range (eventually I probably got close enough to touch his elbows), and half the time didn't even keep the thing pointed at me. I figured if he wanted to kill me he would have shot me already, had no idea how to handle a gun, so it was just an intimidation thing. It seemed a dumb idea to act out, but I tried to get into a position where I might stand a chance if things went bad.

    He demanded my wallet, and I asked permission to put down my coffee so I could get into my pockets more easily. Kneeling down at that point was about the most terrifying part because I felt so vulnerable. But I think it made him feel empowered, and I honestly didn't feel nearly as threatened after that point.

    He ended up taking nothing, just looking for loose cash and I didn't have any. The part that really fucks with me though (more than the emasculation) is that despite feeling pretty much mentally lucid, to this day I have this peripheral memory of a second guy/partner riding up behind him to check on us, then getting some distance again, before they rode off together. But that part comes and goes, its like in the period immediately following I completely forgot and only remembered it much later.

    Now on the note of actually training against an armed assailant... why do the scenerios always seem to be assumed by both sides to be with the weapon already out and lined up with the victim?? That's like starting to counter a RNC when the arteries are already closed off. This goes for both the ridiculous disarm techniques, AND those who say "gun/knife = you're fucked."
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