What's wrong with my triangle?

**Mjelva** · Posted On: 3/01/2006 6:10pm

Originally Posted by jnp

If you squeeze your knees together while attempting to pull your heels toward your own butt (exerting a contracting force with your lower legs), he will not be able to pull his head out. Also make sure to curl your foot toward your own shin in order to flex your calf muscle as this increases the tightness of the triangle.

I've never had problems finishing the triangle (though I suck at getting it), but I still love this post.
I'm a sucker for technical details that make my subs more effective.

Actually, it would be neat to have a thread for that.

**Kengou** · Posted On: 3/01/2006 7:12pm

Thanks a lot, everyone, this is all really helpful. I'll be sure to try it out next class (the white belt class consists of noobie wrestling teenagers mostly, so I can go for a triangle at will on them).

"Just don't make the classic newb mistake of unlocking your feet before you grab and secure your foot with your hand." You nailed it, I think this was my big mistake.

I'll let you all know how the triangles go after my next class on friday!

**ateo** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 2:22pm

jnp's advice is the wisest and clearest thus so far. Make sure you pinch those knees.
I'm 6'4 with quite long legs, and 3/4ths of my successful submissions are triangles, mainly as my lower body is conditioned extremely well in comparison to my upper.

keep workin at it and keep us posted.

**Darkpaladin** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 2:39pm

A solid cross grip (with both hands) on the trapped arm helps alot. And as you move perpendicular, you'll be pulling that arm across his body, which is exactly where it should be. You won't even need to grab your own foot. Cross grip + heel to butt motion = D3adly Tr1angl3

**Punisher** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 5:07pm

This is a great thread with a lot of information, but am I the only one bothered by the fact the Kengou had to resort asking on the internet for technical advice?

Originally Posted by Kengou

I've asked my instructor and he says to just keep practicing until I get the feel for it, but it's been a while and this happens all the time.

I have problems getting techincal instruction at my bjj school too. It's like they just assume people will pick up these little details through osmosis or something.

Shouldn't Kengou's instructor been able to watch him attempt a couple of failed triangles and give him specific advice about what he is doing wrong? Practicing more isn't likely to help if you have a technical flaw.

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 5:49pm

Originally Posted by Punisher

This is a great thread with a lot of information, but am I the only one bothered by the fact the Kengou had to resort asking on the internet for technical advice?

I have problems getting techincal instruction at my bjj school too. It's like they just assume people will pick up these little details through osmosis or something.

Shouldn't Kengou's instructor been able to watch him attempt a couple of failed triangles and give him specific advice about what he is doing wrong? Practicing more isn't likely to help if you have a technical flaw.

I think how much technical information you can give a student is sort of related to how much mat time he/she has. When a new student comes into my club, we generally try to give positive feedback, and tell them "good job," even if they are doing a terrible job. You have to give someone just enough information to get them going without overloading them.

Maybe your instructor is giving you a chance to get used to the basic motions of a particular technique (let's say triangle) before he says something like "Well, when you spin to finish the choke, you're kind of coming up on the wrong side and are facing away from him. Besides that, you aren't curling in your legs quite right, you're not controlling the arm properly, and you should really be at a different angle from the one you're at."

Most of us don't learn techniques perfectly the first, second, or fiftieth time, and it's hard for the instructor to correct every little thing the first time. Grappling is a lot of individual work, and the number 1 cure for most problems is more mat time. Once you've developed the proper "feel" for how things work (and this can take a LONG time), it's way easier for an instructor to start plugging the holes in your technique.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 6:11pm

Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean

IWhen a new student comes into my club, we generally try to give positive feedback, and tell them "good job," even if they are doing a terrible job.

So you're a bunch of liars.

But seriously, more mat time is useless, or at least inefficent, without the proper technical instruction.

You don't have to overload a newb with info, jaron, and fine details, but you should tell them the basics and once they know them be able to elborate on finer points. If not sqeeuzing his legs is Kengou's problem his instructor or a helpful rolling partner should be able to tell him that. Especially if he asks.

**Kengou** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 7:39pm

Ok here's an update, for anyone even remotely curious.

I've asked my instructor some more detailed questions, and he gave me a lot more technical advice. We basically worked from the triangle position over and over and now I feel like I've got a really good feel for it. All of your advice was completely dead-on. My probably was more that I wasn't squeezing my knees enough and pulling his head down, as many of you said. In fact, we wrestled from the triangle position today, and no one escaped mine. I didn't always triangle them (got some armbars, even a kimura) but the position has definately improved.

To quickly go on a bit of a tangent, it seems like every time I have difficulty in a specific part of my game, if I focus on it and ask detailed questions and gather as much instructional material as possible and drill that position over and over, I get much better at it. Yeah, I know, obvious. But it has really worked well for me so far. I had trouble with armbars from the mount at first. So I got tons of videos. I asked my instructor, who introduced me to S-mount and some armbar setups. I drilled it repeatedly. Now my number 1 mount sub is armbar. And after this thread and my specific work on the triangle, I feel like it'll probably be one of my better guard subs soon. Yeah, duh, practicing something makes you better at it, everyone knows that. Well, now I do too, first hand. I'm happy with any small BJJ progress.

You guys all rock though. Thanks again for the great advice on everything.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 3/13/2006 8:15pm

Originally Posted by Kengou

To quickly go on a bit of a tangent, it seems like every time I have difficulty in a specific part of my game, if I focus on it and ask detailed questions and gather as much instructional material as possible and drill that position over and over, I get much better at it.

Dear diary

Today I watch a young'n discover ring science for the first time

it kind of brought a tear to my eye.

:smile:

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 3/14/2006 2:48am

Originally Posted by Punisher

So you're a bunch of liars.

But seriously, more mat time is useless, or at least inefficent, without the proper technical instruction.

You don't have to overload a newb with info, jaron, and fine details, but you should tell them the basics and once they know them be able to elborate on finer points. If not sqeeuzing his legs is Kengou's problem his instructor or a helpful rolling partner should be able to tell him that. Especially if he asks.

From my limited experience, there is a fine line between giving too much information and and not giving enough. Not all instructors manage to walk the line perfectly all the time. Grappling is a very individualized art. Teaching a basic triangle choke to get students familiar with it and leaving out a lot of the intricacies that make it work better is not the same thing as teaching **** technique.

Watch your instructor teach a brand new student how to do a basic mounted armbar. I would bet money that he teaches him/her to do it in a way that no one on earth really does it. Same for your basic ankle lock. Some techniques require some basic experience (even in a way that does not work very well) before new students are really equipped to learn the more fine details of a technique that make it really effective.

Looks like Kengou handled it the right way. Sometimes you just have to badger your instructor a little more to convince him that you're ready to learn more about an individual technique. It's worked pretty well for me.

Have patience, grasshopper. Go to class more. Annoy your instructor with questions.