Iron Weight or Bodyweight?

***TaeBo_Master*** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 2:17pm

Punisher: Yes, static stretching can cause problems, because you need warm muscles for them. Which is why I do a dynamic warm-up routine that takes about 5-10 minutes (and also enhances my flexibility). Plus doing calisthenics is like doing a dyanmic warm up in a way. As far as the bridges go, they are amazingly effective so long as you do them right. Sadly, there are a lot of misconceptions about them out there, the most prominent being that you rest your weight on the top of your head. You need to put the weight on your forehead.

Boyd: You asked for a good resource for bodyweight exercise, I'll tell you what I got. I got the book "Combat Conditioning" by Matt Furey. his website is www.mattfurey.com if you check it out, you'll see a lot of bullshido-esque claims on there, and you'll realize that he's just trying to sell you on a lot of crap. But Combat Conditioning is well worth it. I would recommend it. And for you Punisher, that book also has detailed instructions on how to do proper back bridges and front bridges..... and let me tell you, after doing proper bridges for a few minutes, your neck will NEVER have felt so loose.

--A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --

***TaeBo_Master*** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 2:19pm

I'm very proud, I'm finally able to really do handstand pushups (all the way from arm lockout to the top of your head on the ground). Man, I've never done anything quite so difficult in my life. But the gains in shoulder and back strength as well as balance make me want to do them all the time!

--A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --

**The Wastrel** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 3:26pm

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Quick back up!!! I must insert caveat!! It's not JUST static stretching that causes problems, it's static *active* stretching. Static passive stretches are fine for post-workout cooldowns. Preworkout routines should be composed of related *dynamic* stretches.

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

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**FingerorMoon?** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 5:30pm

I'm actually getting into the Pavel stuff at http://www.dragondoor.com

I think Wastrel put the link up when talking about kettlebells. I had a look and ended up buying the PDF book of 'Power to the People'.
It has some great weight training ideas that will not leave you sore or fatigued for your martial arts training.

So, um...thanks Wastrel !! :)

Also, 2 points to consider:

* bodyweight exercises are still weighted exercises. You are lifting your own bodyweight. Many people who do the lat pulldown at the gym can't do chinups which are the same movement.

* weight training will only cause damage to muscle/ligaments/joints when done incorrectly, or if you are not structurally suited to the particular exercise

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Don't view the glass as half empty, view it as half full of ****.
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**The Wastrel** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 5:37pm

Thank you for making that point, FoM. Most of the most important lifts are simply weighted versions of the major bodyweight exercises, and lifts can sometimes be a better way to prep a really out-of shape person. One might not be able to do a push-up, but they should be able to lift a bar.

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

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**patfromlogan** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 5:52pm

I'm finally able to really do handstand pushups

That was a regular exercise in my old dojo - damn those were the days!

OK, now, what does this mean?

It's not JUST static stretching that causes problems, it's static *active* stretching. Static passive stretches are fine for post-workout cooldowns. Preworkout routines should be composed of related *dynamic* stretches.

I get the idea that splits cold are wrong. And doing moving gradual stretching is right?

controlled leg lifts at approximately 50% of my kicking speed, for a warm up purposes and for flexibility training.

This sounds like what my kid is doing in dance (stretching in continual movement) and she thinks she's gotten better results than trad karate stretching. I noticed that kicking the heavy bag, with no stretching, but gradually increasing height and speed has made it so I can kick much higher with out warm up and stetching out at all. Hmmmm, what's the infor or what's some good links? (http://www.dragondoor.com wants money, I just what the info).

&gt;&gt;&gt;Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

**The Wastrel** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 6:22pm

I will use kicking stretches to explain this:

Static Active Stretching-Ballet style, say a slow kick in the air and holding it up in place for a long time. Think of Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon when the spy lady comes into his room. These stretches are not good. They put pressure on the lumbar spine etc. Hence, lordosis.

Static Passive Stretching-these are the simple stretches that you are used to. Hurdler's stretch etc. To compare with the above: resting your leg on a bar and stretching into it (Static Passive) is okay. Holding it in the air with your own power and stretching it (Static Active) is VERY BAD. The splits are a Static Passive Stretch. These stretches are for the end of a workout.

Dynamic Stretch-Just kicking in the air at a reasonable speed at the limit of your flexibility. ALWAYS STOP when you have done it so much that you are no longer kicking at full stretch. If you do not, you may create a situation called "adaptive shortening", by eliminating muscle memory gains. These sorts of stretches should begin a workout.

Is that clear?

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

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**The Wastrel** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 6:24pm

Patfromlogan,
What you are doing is correct. You will get better flexibility gains from what you are doing. But pay attention to my above post. Also, get "Stretching Scientifically". It's a very good book.

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

Courtesy of flubtitles.com

Edited by - The Wastrel on May 04 2003 18:24:48

**Dochter** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 6:44pm

Do both.

At some point a law of diminishing returns is going to enter into the equation. If you have to do 100 pushups to feel any sort of "burn" or gain any muscular breakdown (necessary for muscle growth) it is unlikely that you're exercising in the most efficient way. Additionally these high rep requirements will exact their own toll on joints (I can do pushups for days but as soon as I stop my shoulders are screwed for awhile due to my injuries while swimming).

Alternately until a year ago I never worked pull-ups into my back workouts and hence was unable to do more than a handful, despite using more than my own weight on lat pull down machines. Now on back days I do four sets of 10-12 pull-ups to start and then a couple of other back exercises. This has resulted in both increased strength and endurance.

There are benefits to both approaches and unless you want to spend two hours just doing bodyweight exercises, integrate weights.

There are also benefits to doing exercises that target muscle groups specifically, namely that you're targeting a muscle group specifically. We all have biomechanical tendencies that we've developed over time that cause us to move differently and favor certain areas, whether from our own strength or previous injuries. Targeting specific areas will help offset this tendency.

**You're all a-holes**

**elipson** · Posted On: 5/04/2003 7:08pm

I started doing back bridges after hearing about them from this site. I've had always had lower back pain for various reasons, but it was gone in a few days after I started doing back bridges! I'm not a big Matt Furey fan, but I'm sold on back bridges.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi